The world’s toughest race starts Saturday, and it’s delightfully hard to call this year
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The Escape Collective will very likely have photo galleries detailing new tech used at the Tour. Some of it (bikes, for instance) have already been spotted at the Dauphiné or earlier races so I don’t know if they’ll cover everything.
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Ahem. Seems like your intuition for geography also falls apart
Slovenian is South Slavic, and Slovenia is usually defined as being in southern Central Europe, as it is bordered by Italy, Austria and Croatia. It didn't even fit in the Cold War usage of Eastern Europe contra Western Europe as divided by the Iron Curtain, as Tito's Yugoslavia was non‑aligned in the Cold War. Definitions of geographic areas are by definition dynamic – you wouldn't call Southern California "Northern Mexico" nowadays, would you?
And even if there might not be any universally agreed official definition of it, I'd say this is a pretty good map (apart from still including Russia – I'd argue that they should not be counted as European anymore, at least culturally):
View attachment 84207
Just FYI
If this helps (likely better to hear it yourself than read my lame attempts at English‑friendly phonetic transcription or you getting your head around IPA):
When is this map from? Who was it written /drawn by?
Because the "central" line is one or two countries over from where it should be: any map that has Luxembourg separate from its neighbors to the west does not make sense.
France has far more in common with Germany than Germany does with Poland. It seriously seems like they're reaching to avoid putting countries into Western Europe so that 'Central' is bigger than it is
(I've long considered "central Europe" to start at Poland and you can just walk down the line to Czechia, Slovakia, and Hungary. Western Europe is west of Poland, no?)
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US version is unwatchable now. Anyone had any luck using a VPN? Flobikes Canadian feed maybe?
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Live blog of the first stage by the Manchester Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/l...e-2024-stage-one-from-florence-to-romini-live
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/l...e-2024-stage-one-from-florence-to-romini-live
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I went the expensive route (mostly because I want to be able to watch replays later in the day). VPN to Canada then a month of FloBikes. $50/month Canadian (~$35 US). In hindsight, I should have signed up to Flo in the US for $30/month and then changed my country.
I had paid for the commercial free version of Peacock. During the ad breaks they were going to a black "Be right back" screen. On top of that there were far too many talking heads and breakaways for little stories. Watching the world feed now and it really shows how bad NBC's coverage is.
I had paid for the commercial free version of Peacock. During the ad breaks they were going to a black "Be right back" screen. On top of that there were far too many talking heads and breakaways for little stories. Watching the world feed now and it really shows how bad NBC's coverage is.
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YetAnotherAnonymousAppellation
Ars Tribunus Militum
Then there's the Tour Divide:
"The 2024 Tour Divide begins on Friday, June 14th, at 8 a.m. with around 200 riders following the roughly 2,700-mile Great Divide Mountain Bike Route from north to south starting in Banff, Alberta, Canada, and finishing at the US/Mexico border in Antelope Wells, New Mexico."
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It is not that clear cut. Western Europe can be all the way to the former iron curtain, the same for Easter Europe the other way. Northern Europe can include Netherlands and Germany when talking politics, and include Britain when talking weather.Ahem. Seems like your intuition for geography also falls apart
Slovenian is South Slavic, and Slovenia is usually defined as being in southern Central Europe, as it is bordered by Italy, Austria and Croatia. It didn't even fit in the Cold War usage of Eastern Europe contra Western Europe as divided by the Iron Curtain, as Tito's Yugoslavia was non‑aligned in the Cold War. Definitions of geographic areas are by definition dynamic – you wouldn't call Southern California "Northern Mexico" nowadays, would you?
And even if there might not be any universally agreed official definition of it, I'd say this is a pretty good map (apart from still including Russia – I'd argue that they should not be counted as European anymore, at least culturally):
View attachment 84207
Just FYI
Central Europe generally doesn't include the Baltics. But is otherwise pretty stable and accurate on your map. Southern Europe usually include the Balkans.
So the regions are not distinct, but overlapping and context dependent.
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Also, it's late Sunday where I am now (UK) and I've had a few glasses of wine, but… I really don't understand what the "following cultural proximities" heading means.
Are some parts of southern France, Spain, Portugal and most of Italy only in Europe because of those cultural proximities? Idem for Southeastern Europe? Am I too drunk to get it?
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The map gives you two slightly different divisions:
1) the colours represent a division that follows national borders, placing e.g. all of France into "Western Europe";
2) the lines represent a division that doesn't necessarily follow national borders, placing e.g. parts of southern France into Southern Europe and the Alsace into Central Europe.
I agree with earlier posters that either way, it doesn't really work.
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Stage 3 
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Didn't read all comments, but I feel it needs to be pointed out that, although Vingegaard is rightfully considered the best TOUR cyclist of the last 2-3 years, I think Pogacar has a leg up with fans who follow more than just the 3 grand tours. Whereas Vingegaard follows in the footsteps of hyper-focused and hyper-prepared tour specialists, neglecting other periods of the year and types of races, Pogacar takes on many other one-day classic races as well, often totally dominating them and beating specialist riders. In that sense, he replicates some of the biggest stars or the past, like Merckx, who were likewise riding all year, and didn't carefully select their races. (they HAD to, to make somewhat of decent living) I think this also appeals to people who dislike the "over-scienceing" and "total control" aspects of modern cycling and sport in general. He's taking more chances and shows respect for the history and totality of the sport. He also seems an extremely nice and down-to-earth person, always extremely gracious in defeat, as well.
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Without the necessary background information, history and good knowledgeable commentators, I can see how it could be incredibly boring, though. And those things need to slowly mature and grow on you, you can't acquire something like that in even a few months. Something like downhill racing is easier in terms of being able to appreciate the superficial spectacle (not meant derogatory). The excitement and value is just easier to access/extract. Maybe like the difference between a cocktail and a fine wine ?
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Since there are only ever, say, at most 3 serious contenders for the overall win, over time organizers have invented many side classification and incentives of all kinds. It's also their job each year to come up with a mixture of stages, and even a specific order of them, that gives enough teams and riders the idea that there are chances for this or that more specialized, but not fit-for-an-overall-win, riders. Otherwise you wouldn't find a lot of teams to actually compete. There's also attention given to time limits: for example big bulky sprinters SHOULD be able to finish in time even in long grueling mountain stages, unless they have a problem or don't make the cut of a good professional racer. Because for example the very last stage is almost always a very prestigious (kinda the "unofficial World Championship of Sprinting") sprinter's stage, and if most of them would usually arrive out-of-time in one of the mountain stages, that just wouldn't make much sense. NO team would enter a sprinter in the race, and the last stage would end up being a bit of a farce.
It's sport, it's spectacle, but it's also an industry/system that needs to maintain itself, keeping all the parts running and everyone participating in the show happy.
But the competition and the athletic performance make sure that it's grueling and selective no matter what. Extremely stressful, also, to the point that potential winners and their teams will often prefer to let racers from the second row carry the yellow jersey in the earlier parts, so they don't have to worry about "defending" it until the potentially Tour-winning stages arrive.
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I used to follow the Tour de France almost fanatically for about fifteen years and maybe I got burned out on it or maybe it was just that I didn't have any place to watch the race and therefore the opportunity was taken from me. I don't remember and by the time I know about the race it is mostly over and I like to watch it from the beginning.
I think that Washington State has the variety and enough mountains (including Mt Baker to the north, Mt Rainier in the middle, Mt. Adams and Mt. St. Helens to the south, and even Mt. Hood in Oregon could be included for the mountain days.
But we also have everything from deserts to rain forest, the ocean to well ... Mt Rainier and the other mountains. We have flat land and land where it is never flat. You can get heat stroke and freeze your ****s off on the same day. And we have the Washington coast line of the Pacific Ocean which is beautiful enough to grab your attention that you forget about what you are doing and crash (I haven't but it is very beautiful).
Yes, it rains in western Washington State. It's called "the wet side" referring to the west side of our state, for a reason. Meanwhile the east side of our state has rolling hills of grain and desert. It has the Columbia gorge and many different rivers with roads winding next to them.
If Washington isn't considered big enough, then include Idaho and Oregon and if you don't get enough variety for everyone in Washington or by adding Idaho and Oregon, then I just don't get what you are looking for in variety and extremes in terrain and climate and altitude. The only thing we don't have is a tour and the history. But then nobody does.
Why don't I organize a tour? Money. Money that I'm not asking for. There are many people in Washington State that would be significantly more qualified with significantly more access to millions let alone billions of dollars in the state.
I wish we had a tour here but maybe it would be a bad thing because too many people might see how great and beautiful our state is. And other than Alaska, I can't think of any state with the variety of what I've talked about that would challenge ANY group of riders from around the world.
Having a tour of Alaska would be cool too and would get back to something like the Tour de France started out with on all the dirt and gravel roads before the Tour de France was paved. Watch the oldest videos of the Tour de France. I'm more fascinated by the old movies of the tour than the tour now days.
Anyway, anyone reading this from Washington State that would be good at organizing something like I described like the tour of Washington or the Tour De Northwest. Heck, through in British Columbia in too, not that I think we would need it. But there are MANY, MANY great motorcycle roads up in BC which my wife and I have ridden on. Yes, I know, don't tell too many people about our secret great roads and state.
Maybe I shouldn't let the cat out of the bag (I would never put a cat in a bag or hurt a cat on purpose). But I would love to see how our state or our region could put its claws into the legs of the riders.
I think that Washington State has the variety and enough mountains (including Mt Baker to the north, Mt Rainier in the middle, Mt. Adams and Mt. St. Helens to the south, and even Mt. Hood in Oregon could be included for the mountain days.
But we also have everything from deserts to rain forest, the ocean to well ... Mt Rainier and the other mountains. We have flat land and land where it is never flat. You can get heat stroke and freeze your ****s off on the same day. And we have the Washington coast line of the Pacific Ocean which is beautiful enough to grab your attention that you forget about what you are doing and crash (I haven't but it is very beautiful).
Yes, it rains in western Washington State. It's called "the wet side" referring to the west side of our state, for a reason. Meanwhile the east side of our state has rolling hills of grain and desert. It has the Columbia gorge and many different rivers with roads winding next to them.
If Washington isn't considered big enough, then include Idaho and Oregon and if you don't get enough variety for everyone in Washington or by adding Idaho and Oregon, then I just don't get what you are looking for in variety and extremes in terrain and climate and altitude. The only thing we don't have is a tour and the history. But then nobody does.
Why don't I organize a tour? Money. Money that I'm not asking for. There are many people in Washington State that would be significantly more qualified with significantly more access to millions let alone billions of dollars in the state.
I wish we had a tour here but maybe it would be a bad thing because too many people might see how great and beautiful our state is. And other than Alaska, I can't think of any state with the variety of what I've talked about that would challenge ANY group of riders from around the world.
Having a tour of Alaska would be cool too and would get back to something like the Tour de France started out with on all the dirt and gravel roads before the Tour de France was paved. Watch the oldest videos of the Tour de France. I'm more fascinated by the old movies of the tour than the tour now days.
Anyway, anyone reading this from Washington State that would be good at organizing something like I described like the tour of Washington or the Tour De Northwest. Heck, through in British Columbia in too, not that I think we would need it. But there are MANY, MANY great motorcycle roads up in BC which my wife and I have ridden on. Yes, I know, don't tell too many people about our secret great roads and state.
Maybe I shouldn't let the cat out of the bag (I would never put a cat in a bag or hurt a cat on purpose). But I would love to see how our state or our region could put its claws into the legs of the riders.
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Pogacar is considered the best all round rider in a generation, possibly ever. I started watching bike racing when Greg Lemond won the TDF, and I've never seen anyone as dominant in so many areas as Pogacar. Look at this years Giro. He dominated everywhere, with 6 stage wins (probably could have had more).
This is Pogacar's Tour to lose, not Vingegaard's to win. Many think Pogacar could easily have 3 or 4 TDF wins already, if he just rode slightly more tactically.
Vingegaard at 128 lbs is more of climbing specialist. IMO, he's definitely the underdog here. He really doesn't have the power to challenge Vingegaard outside the mountains. For Vingegaard to win he has to race a near perfect tactical race, and then wait for Pogacar to have a bad day. Which is kind of what happened last year, so Vingegaard's win last year doesn't make him the better tour racer or more likely to win. He had a terrible crash, and his team is missing Sepp Kuss, so he's weaker this year, and so is his team.
Stage 11 at least makes it seem like Vingegaard is recovered enough that it isn't going to be another display of Pogacar dominance like the Giro. All Pogacar need do is race smarter to eliminate his bad days...
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There's a somewhat unfortunate and uncomfortable tension between doing WHATEVER it takes to MAXIMIZE your chances to WIN, on the one hand, and respecting and prioritizing the essence and heart of the sport, on the other hand. I think we are very fortunate to have a racer again (probably the first since Merckx), who actually has the inherent capacities to take the latter as a starting point, and still end up winning a number of high profile races that is comparable to the number won by the the former type of competitors. They probably think that if they would try to pull off the same feat, they will end up being just second or third all the time, and never actually win.
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Using your brain is not disrespecting the essence of the sport.
I'm more impressed by the underdog that can use his brains to overcome a physically superior competitor, than I am by the genetic lottery winner that just pummels the field with brute force.
Johan Bruyneel analysis of Stage 11:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_BFVu9qMLA
TLDW: UAE has terrible tactics.
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I don't think Johan Bruyneel is a go-to person when it comes to evaluating what should be the right approach to win. But that as an aside
Anyway: did you like the periods when people like Froom and their teams strangled any and all opposition by cold hard calculated efficiency and deploying more resources?
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I don't think Johan Bruyneel is a go-to person when it comes to evaluating what should be the right approach to win. But that as an aside
I think he was DS on more winning tour teams than any man in history so he knows sound tactics. That they were clawed back over doping is irrelevant. Lance Armstrong doped to the gills still wasn't as dominant a rider as Pogacar. So he still needed good tactics.
Pogacar is more entertaining.
But I root for the underdog using his brains, to over come the more powerful genetic monster.
If Vingegaard's team weren't using good tactics, he wouldn't stand a chance. Would you prefer he also race without brains and just hand the tour to Pogacar?
Pogacar is so strong that he can often get away without much tactical concern, but we shouldn't insist that other teams using sound tactics is disrespectful. The tour is a tactical team race, and has been for probably a hundred years.
The tactics of UAE have been heavily criticized, to the point, that I expect they will race a more tactical race, because they do also want to win TDF, and I think they now realize they can't just overpower the TDF, like everything else this year.
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Isn't that what most top teams do now, in one way or another? It's a strategy that doesn't work as well anymore, since they all use it. You can't strangle other teams with it anymore. Marginal gains, ketones, food customized for each individual rider, ... . All of that is not an exception anymore, it's become the rule.
Pogačar races in a less calculated way, more by feeling (or at least it looks that way); it looks like he and/or his team are not strong in tactics, but in all other respects he's part of a team with lots of resources. His team employs domestiques who could easily be leaders in other teams.
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It's not black and white, of course. But I would think we have to actually be GRATEFUL for a genetic lottery winner like Pogacar (and really, Vingegaard is one as well, let's not kid ourselves). Because without guys like him we would regress to the sleep-inducing predictable no-risk "build out a 1 minute advantage and follow in the wheel from that point onwards" that was so prevalent over the last 3 decades roughly. MY GOD is this refreshing to watch!!
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Yes, completely agree. Unfortunately Roglič had to step out of the race after a fall, but even without him we get to watch this fight between not only Pogačar and Roglič, but also newcomer Evenepoel. Is it realistic for him to fight for first place in GC? Or should he be satisfied to finish third, after both former winners? On top of that we get to see revelation Biniam Girmay with three stage wins already and firmly in the lead in the points classification.
Tomorrow we get the first real mountain stage; it's going to be interesting to see how that shuffles the deck.
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OTOH, If he wins everything for the next 3 years straight, then it starts getting pointless to watch.
What I want is competitive racing, not one dominant player.
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I agree in general, and next year I will happily cheer on Evenepoel or another underdog.
But if Pogačar wins this (and it looks like he will), I really hope that he will also try to win the Vuelta, simply because winning the Giro, the Tour and the Vuelta in one year would be such a unique achievement, that would likely not be repeated for many years to come, and because I don't see how Pogačar will get a similar opportunity again.
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