When is it time to flee, part three

[Doomlord_uk]

You should do your homework on bringing your family back. It's neither cheap, easy or quick. My brother's been through this (though, not married as such...) and it's been a very expensive rigmarole. The new Labour government might change things. Your kids are good, but your wife might take 7.5 or 10 years to get ILR and that might cost north of £20k with renewal fees.

 

[dio82]

No country wants me or my wife so we're both fucked.

I'm probably going to be unceremoniously fired due to Schedule F.

I'm 40, she's 50. Neither of us work in a "needed" job and neither of us speak anything but English.

We can just do our part and resist, but it's not looking good...

Are you sure about "not needed jobs"?

There is still Ireland and the UK for native speakers, and in the Nordic EU countries, Netherlands and Germany all educated professionals are fluent in English.

40 is considered young in Europe. And immigration only starts to get picky if you are 60+.

 

[charliebird]

No country wants me or my wife so we're both fucked.

I'm probably going to be unceremoniously fired due to Schedule F.

I'm 40, she's 50. Neither of us work in a "needed" job and neither of us speak anything but English.

We can just do our part and resist, but it's not looking good...

I'm so jealous of people that have the ability to get citizenship via descents. One of my parents descendants are Russian and Ukrainian jews. My other parent was adopted. I don't think a person could have a worse set of options.

 

[waubers]

Well, one thing I learned from yesterday is that I need to light a fire under my mother's ass for her to reclaim her EU citizenship. Once she has it, I should have able reclaim mine in <6 months...assuming we still have free movement to leave the country at that point. If things get nasty enough and the economy goes bad enough (due to tariffs and mass deportations this is a real possibility) there's a good chance they'd start restricting folks w/assets from leaving w/o more official reasons. Pretty sure that doesn't even take an act of congress, so all I can try to do is get done fast.

 

[GMBigKev]

Are you sure about "not needed jobs"?

There is still Ireland and the UK for native speakers, and in the Nordic EU countries, Netherlands and Germany all educated professionals are fluent in English.

40 is considered young in Europe. And immigration only starts to get picky if you are 60+.

My wife is a pottery teacher and I'm a government analyst...

How far back is your Irish and German ancestry? A single Irish grandparent counts for citizenship via descent (meaning, no other requirements: job skills & age don't matter).
AFAIK, it's similar for Germany, except a great-grandparent also qualifies.

Not early enough. My wife's half-Korean, but other than that I think my great-grandparents weren't wholly German or Irish.

 

[yd]

A path to New Zealand residency really has only three main requirements: you need to be under the age of 56 when you apply, do not have a criminal record, and a job offer that's either in a certain field or earn more than twice the medium income. Unfortunately the job market is quite flat at the moment but there certain areas that are always in high demand such as doctors, nurses, and certain IT roles. Certain professions require that you get your credentials evaluated before you can be licensed to work here like a doctor, nurse, lawyer, and maybe teacher. You're find that the same basic paths exist for Australia and Canada. Australia for example you have to be under the age of 46 and I think there's options where you don't need to have a job offer. Canada's complex because they have a different options for each province and if you speak French then you have a whole other set of options.

I'm happy to try to answer any questions about New Zealand.

Just one other thing, financially there's no better place to be US. I'm fine with that because I'm not a particularly materialistic person. But if you want the highest earning potential compare to cost of living than I would stick it out. No judgement on anyone's part.

Just an incremental - there is a retirement visa route there but you have to be 66 years old and you have to have a decent amount of cash and you have to provide your own healthcare insurance. And it needs to be renewed every two years.

If the whole expat route isn't readily feasible easily for some, there is also the 'blue sorting' option aka move away from the shitty places and move to the ones that are more civilized. Personally, I like the idea of Shelter Island in the Hamptons - deep blue state, rich, not going to get fucked with much and you would be on an island off a peninsula where you could have a shelter and load up on guns and see the zombie hordes coming.

 

[Papewaio]

They don't allow immigrants in who have autistic children.

Broader and more subtle than a blanket ban on autistic children.

All visa applicants need to pass a health test, and if they have extra health requirements they are expected to pay for those out of their own pocket for the duration of the visa. So this impacts anyone with a disability, but the economic burden is not equitable for all cases.

So it is a pay to win situation.

 

[poochyena]

Broader and more subtle than a blanket ban on autistic children.

All visa applicants need to pass a health test, and if they have extra health requirements they are expected to pay for those out of their own pocket for the duration of the visa. So this impacts anyone with a disability, but the economic burden is not equitable for all cases.

So it is a pay to win situation.

No, having autism would be considered as failing the health test.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_autistic_people#Immigrationhttps://www.equaljusticeproject.co....rimination-in-new-zealand-immigration-law2020

An applicant for permanent residency will fail if they:

• Have condition(s) that fall within the extensive range of conditions listed at A4.10.1 – including conditions ranging from uncontrolled epilepsy to autistic spectrum disorders, from paraplegia to any psychiatric illness that has required hospitalisation.

Across the board, it is irrelevant whether an applicant can privately access these services – the mere possibility that they will require social services is enough.

 

[BurntToShreds]

I don't have the resources to flee. I'm going to be staying here in Houston doing my job to keep earning enough scratch to leave for somewhere in Illinois, if possible. There are some friends that live up there. However I hope that a couple of them, a married couple, one of whom recently immigrated here from Mexico to be with their spouse, manage to get out of here and somewhere else soon. One of them is a game dev, they've been a game dev for a long time, and that gives them connections they can hopefully use to leave with their spouse and work somewhere outside of the U.S.

 

[Zero Chill]

I moved to Vietnam in 2022 and I'd highly recommend it. Teaching English is the go to career for expats here. You need a bachelor's degree in anything, then you take a 4-week certificate program when you get here.

You'll need about $3k USD not counting flights to get yourself set up. $2k for the certificate, and another $1k for living expenses.

If anyone would like more information, please don't hesitate to ask here or over PM.

 

[blindbear]

As someone in biotech/pharm, and with disability, my option are also limited. Will keep my option of return to China open, but will stick around for now. On the "good side", I doubt I will last long in "camp" or any less than ideals situation given my disability. So it will be quick if we actually get there.

I do believe we will have election in 4 years. Though, I expect the deck would be stacked against Democrats.

 

[charliebird]

You all bring up a good point about the requirements for health. Any country with socialized healthcare is going to have some sort of criteria for personal health status. That doesn't mean you and your family needs to be in perfect health. What they usually do is a cost basis analysis and if long term health cost are estimated to go over a certain number than there can be conditions or possibly denial. Despite this I've know several cancer survivors who were able to obtain residency. If this is a consideration then I would definitely recommend speaking to a license immigration adviser.

 

[Random_stranger]

I moved to Vietnam in 2022 and I'd highly recommend it. Teaching English is the go to career for expats here. You need a bachelor's degree in anything, then you take a 4-week certificate program when you get here.

You'll need about $3k USD not counting flights to get yourself set up. $2k for the certificate, and another $1k for living expenses.

If anyone would like more information, please don't hesitate to ask here or over PM.

How's the general stability? What about career paths for teenagers? Any concerns about China?

 

[The Sheep Look Up]

Any concerns about China?

Vietnam has spent about 2/3 of the last 2000 years doing some form of attempting to throw off foreign invaders, with some flavor of China being most of those. I could see strategic partnerships, but even client state status would chafe a bit.

 

[charliebird]

I would suggest that anyone considering leaving should seriously think about their motives. I moved overseas because I love New Zealand and genuinely wanted to live here. While the U.S. political situation provided some extra motivation, it wasn't a deciding factor. Of course, I'm deeply disappointed with how the election turned out and would have been thrilled if it had gone differently; however, it wouldn’t have changed my opinion about living here. Moving overseas solely as a disgruntled American 'refugee' would likely be a depressing experience for you and for the people you interact with at your destination.

Immigrating is incredibly challenging—your life becomes more complex, you’re likely leaving family and friends behind, and you essentially have to start over. With the right mindset, it can definitely be a great experience, but I've seen it become a miserable one for others.

 

[Thegs]

Anybody thinking about emigrating to Germany, ping me.

The German industry is looking very badly for IT-Jobs, with many companies even having English as their official language in office (they are so international!).

Compared to the US, do expect a massive cut in pay. But expenses are much lower; groceries are about half and rent is a third to a quarter compared to the US. Medical costs and education are free, and medical insurance costs a fraction of what you pay in the US. So it evens out:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWJja2U7oCw


Expect to live for rent in a smaller flat; expect to say goodbye to your car and to embrace public transport.

I'm thinking about it, so I'll ping you. I've also looked in to Brussels, I was angling for a job there a few years back but Belgium seems less than ideal honestly. How the government treats my friend who lives there, and is pretty poor, isn't great for example.

The biggest issue I foresee with my own emigration is that I don't have a college degree - it hasn't been and won't be a hindrance to my career in the States because I have a security clearance and have worked in many important-sounding government organizations. But I'm doubtful they mean much outside of the federal government, and specifically the intelligence community here. I've jokingly called it my golden chains, and well, that feels incredibly apt now.

The second issue is that I've put every spare dollar I've made in to retirement accounts, I only have about $20k easily accessible. That puts me far ahead of most Americans, I am sadly aware, but also far behind any requirement to say, buy a house or make a large investment for citizenship (like for various countries' golden visas).

If that's not going to be a problem, I'm a Linux Systems administrator, I'm able to do Windows but it's usually the Linux skills everyone asks for. I would be incredibly grateful for any advice or leads you know of.

 

[Papewaio]

No, having autism would be considered as failing the health test.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_autistic_people#Immigrationhttps://www.equaljusticeproject.co....rimination-in-new-zealand-immigration-law2020

If you fail the health test you need to prove that you can pay for the disability privately for the length of the visa. That is not the same as a blanket ban.

So a visa for an autistic person would be dependent on several factors, where they are on the spectrum, what health costs are likely to be occurring during the length of the visa, and then the ability of the person to pay for that extra healthcare.

It is inherently unfair and weighted to wealthy, hence the pay to win. It is also more general in scope in just targeting autistic people, but all disabilities. However it isn’t an automatic ban, and people should be aware of technicalities when applying for visas and not be given misinformation.

 

[poochyena]

If you fail the health test you need to prove that you can pay for the disability privately for the length of the visa. That is not the same as a blanket ban.

The link explicitly says otherwise. Whats your source for what you are saying is true?

 

[Moller]

I'm new to the thread and appreciate its existence. It's exactly what I've been wondering this morning: what events must transpire in the US to indicate it is time to GTFO. I came here because I know there are oodles of extremely intelligent people who I can sponge off of. I've noticed this thread moved off the "when" and more to the "where." I'm certainly more interested in the when right now. The where, I will work out a bit later.

Background: I'm white and middle-aged. Live in West Michigan (conservative but turning bluer). Have one adult daughter in her early twenties who doesn't live with me and a mother who is in her late-sixties. I'm her only child, so I feel like any exit strategy would have to include her. The really salient points: I'm a transgender woman. I'm also a lesbian. I'm not partnered or seeing anybody currently, but let's assume that will change in the next four years. I'm spiritual, but not religious. I'm out to lots of people. Fly a progress flag. I do have a small network made up of some privileged and some queer friends.

Finances: I work in Healthcare Information Technology. I also work from home. Salaried in the low six figures. I have very little cash on hand. I do have a 401k and a small-ish Roth IRA. I have a mortgage on a nice house with water frontage in a rural-ish suburb. My mother has access to a significant amount of cash on hand and is sitting on property valued at a few million dollars. (Long story - we're looking at our options on what we can do with it) She's lock step with me on politics, and my loathing and fear of the Great Orange Satan. Daughter is as well.

Question: with my demographics placing me in a vulnerable and targeted minority (one that the right would love to see obliterated), what events should be my trigger to go ex-pat? What actions taken by the Trump regime should be my criteria to execute a GTFO plan?

I really appreciate any suggestions the Ars intelligencia has to offer! A bit freaked right now and want to handle this fear rationally!

This might help? There's a meeting this Saturday over on the other side of the state:
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/AnnArbor/comments/1glfb67/well_st_what_now_hosted_by_transgender_unity/

Spoiler: spoilered for long

“Well S—t, What Now?” Double Event, hosted by Transgender Unity Coalition, on Saturday, Nov. 9, 2024
10:30am - 12pm in Ypsilanti
Vertex Coffee (outside)
307 N River St, Ypsilanti, MI 48198
1pm - 2:30pm in Ann Arbor
NOW Studios (basement)
715 N University Ave, Ann Arbor, MI 48104
RSVP at: https://forms.gle/2neFds9FUw3fCYp19
Streamable at: https://www.transunitycoalition.org/
-
These are uncertain times for the transgender community. Please join us to discuss:

• What you need to do before January 20
• How can I still get healthcare?
• Local and broader resources
• Basic legal rights and what could change
• And more…

Ypsilanti is much more welcoming than West Michigan. Ann Arbor is also very welcoming, but I think Ypsilanti right now is more like how Ann Arbor used to be 20+ years ago.

 

[poochyena]

Legal abortion

Strict gun laws

Good transit system

Majority english speaking

lgbt rights aren't the best, but its not outright illegal either.
Am I wrong in thinking Singapore looks like a great option?

 

[charliebird]

Legal abortion
View attachment 95305
Strict gun laws
View attachment 95306
Good transit system
View attachment 95307
Majority english speaking
View attachment 95308
lgbt rights aren't the best, but its not outright illegal either.
Am I wrong in thinking Singapore looks like a great option?

Very hard to get residency unless you're Asian. I think it's not too bad for getting work visas and I know a couple former work colleagues who live there.

 

[Macam]

Legal abortion
View attachment 95305
Strict gun laws
View attachment 95306
Good transit system
View attachment 95307
Majority english speaking
View attachment 95308
lgbt rights aren't the best, but its not outright illegal either.
Am I wrong in thinking Singapore looks like a great option?

You might want to look at the housing situation.

 

[Macam]

Anybody thinking about emigrating to Germany, ping me.

The German industry is looking very badly for IT-Jobs, with many companies even having English as their official language in office (they are so international!).

Compared to the US, do expect a massive cut in pay. But expenses are much lower; groceries are about half and rent is a third to a quarter compared to the US. Medical costs and education are free, and medical insurance costs a fraction of what you pay in the US. So it evens out:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWJja2U7oCw


Expect to live for rent in a smaller flat; expect to say goodbye to your car and to embrace public transport.

I'm looking -- perhaps foolishly -- at the opposite end of the European continent, though I do have relatives in Germany. I just don't care for the language (verbally exhausting), food, or the AfD. T

he pay rate was like going in a Time Machine, but honestly, I'd rather go back 20 years than wherever the fuck the GOP is trying to take us.

 

[poochyena]

You might want to look at the housing situation.

yikes, thats very expensive

 

[sngck]

And what visa will you be using to stay for the long term in Singapore?
They don't tend to give out Permanent Residency that easily.

https://vulcanpost.com/874317/nansen-ceo-singapore-pr-application-rejection-not-money-related/

 

[Yagisama]

Anybody thinking about emigrating to Germany, ping me.

The German industry is looking very badly for IT-Jobs, with many companies even having English as their official language in office (they are so international!).

Compared to the US, do expect a massive cut in pay. But expenses are much lower; groceries are about half and rent is a third to a quarter compared to the US. Medical costs and education are free, and medical insurance costs a fraction of what you pay in the US. So it evens out:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWJja2U7oCw


Expect to live for rent in a smaller flat; expect to say goodbye to your car and to embrace public transport.

Anybody thinking about emigrating to Germany, ping me.

The German industry is looking very badly for IT-Jobs, with many companies even having English as their official language in office (they are so international!).

Compared to the US, do expect a massive cut in pay. But expenses are much lower; groceries are about half and rent is a third to a quarter compared to the US. Medical costs and education are free, and medical insurance costs a fraction of what you pay in the US. So it evens out:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWJja2U7oCw


Expect to live for rent in a smaller flat; expect to say goodbye to your car and to embrace public transport.

After Japan, Germany is my other choice. My super fantasy involves spending equal parts each year between Japan and Germany. But that was more daydreaming that made more sense before Nov 5.

I've lived in Hamburg but that was a long time ago (when it was in West Germany) and as such have forgotten most German. But it's been slowly coming back to me. I may end up pinging you in the future.

 

[Brad Oliver]

I would suggest that anyone considering leaving should seriously think about their motives. I moved overseas because I love New Zealand and genuinely wanted to live here. While the U.S. political situation provided some extra motivation, it wasn't a deciding factor. Of course, I'm deeply disappointed with how the election turned out and would have been thrilled if it had gone differently; however, it wouldn’t have changed my opinion about living here. Moving overseas solely as a disgruntled American 'refugee' would likely be a depressing experience for you and for the people you interact with at your destination.

Immigrating is incredibly challenging—your life becomes more complex, you’re likely leaving family and friends behind, and you essentially have to start over. With the right mindset, it can definitely be a great experience, but I've seen it become a miserable one for others.

I second this wholeheartedly. I didn't move due to politics but more for lifestyle. (I confess it feels like a bonus to be out of the US especially now.)

But it's not "easy" and it can be quite mentally taxing after a while, feeling like death by 1000 tiny cuts. Just last week, after 4 years here, I had an encounter with a checkout lady at the grocery store who spoke Portuguese with a thick Spanish accent and she might as well have been speaking Chinese. The processing power it takes for me to understand the native language as spoken is one thing -- it's another to deal with it sped up and with an entirely different accent. So that feeling of "you don't really belong here" comes and goes in waves, and you have to find a way to deal with it or get over it.

 

[poochyena]

And what visa will you be using to stay for the long term in Singapore?
They don't tend to give out Permanent Residency that easily.

https://vulcanpost.com/874317/nansen-ceo-singapore-pr-application-rejection-not-money-related/

That sounds like they didn't want a crypto dude in their country. My fiancee is malaysian, so I assume we'd get somewhat higher odds because of that. Its really the housing costs that could be most problematic. I thought it was expensive compared to SEA countries. I didn't realize it was expensive compared to US standards. oof.
minor nitpick with the article

This is mainly because Singapore is tiny and cannot take people in as freely as, let’s say, the UAE can

I looked on google earth and WOW does Singapore have a lot of golf courses!!!! Good lord. No city with a dozen separate golf courses can truthfully say they are "full".

 

[arcite]

No country wants me or my wife so we're both fucked.

I'm probably going to be unceremoniously fired due to Schedule F.

I'm 40, she's 50. Neither of us work in a "needed" job and neither of us speak anything but English.

We can just do our part and resist, but it's not looking good...

You might need to think outside the box. For example, Cambodia is pretty much where Thailand was thirty years ago, it's possible for an American to get a long term visa (1 year) with little headache.; you can live cheaply there, food is great, plenty of low cost accommodation, and Cambodians are the most pleasant people ever. I visited Cambodia once - did a tour of Phnom Phen, Angkor wat, just a short hop from Thailand (like 15 years ago now); incredible country, full of rain forests, ancient temples, awesome food ect.... At that time, Phnom Phen was full of 'hippy types' all opening trendy coffee shops; I imagine now there are way more Chinese business types due to the gambling industry. I do know one Englishman from Oxford (who serindipidouly cheated on his wife with a Cambodian - and had a baby), decided to settle in Phenom Phen (he was a development consultant), bought an old house and fixed it up. Really cliche actually-- maybe that was more a midlife crisis type deal, but he was happy with it (probably a bit of a SOB for cheating on his wife like that too- One time he nearly died from catching dengue fever, which is endemic in the country; I think he got old and returned to England by now) ---- I'm not making moral judgements, the point is he loved living in Cambodia, learned the language ect... So as far as safety goes, it's a good option.

 

[TheColinous]

My wife is a pottery teacher and I'm a government analyst...

There is actually quite a market for pottery instructors, or any type of craft instructor, here in Sweden. That said, it's not that easy to get a residence permit if you're from outside the EEA. I don't think it qualifies as a critical skill.

 

[uatu]

For anyone seriously exploring options I recommend browsing around Numbeo:
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/
Specifically, compare destination cities/countries with wherever you live now, and scroll directly to the bottom of the comparisons, to the sections "Salaries", "Rent Per Month" and "Buy Apartment Price".

 

[Embattle]

For anyone seriously exploring options I recommend browsing around Numbeo:
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/
Specifically, compare destination cities/countries with wherever you live now, and scroll directly to the bottom of the comparisons, to the sections "Salaries", "Rent Per Month" and "Buy Apartment Price".

It kind of shows the problem of US housing/cost of living when the UK is lower, considering how small we are in comparison and that we have both of those issues as well.

 

[uatu]

AFAICT compaint about housing costs/shortages are universal in the urban regions in the entire developed world (N. America, most of Europe, Oceania and all the high income countries in Asia). They're probably the same in many capitals and large cities in middle income countries.

 

[uatu]

It kind of shows the problem of US housing/cost of living when the UK is lower, considering how small we are in comparison and that we have both of those issues as well.

Unclear what numbers you're looking at. On a national level, rent-to-salary is similar between the US and the UK, while price-to-salary is far higher in the UK.

 

[Embattle]

Unclear what numbers you're looking at. On a national level, rent-to-salary is similar between the US and the UK, while price-to-salary is far higher in the UK.

Nothing detailed, just the summary bit:

• Cost of living in United Kingdom is, on average, 6.9% lower than in United States.
• Rent in United Kingdom is, on average, 24.7% lower than in United States.

 

[uatu]

Nothing detailed, just the summary bit:

Those ratios are not adjusted to local salaries, which are 28.9% lower in the UK. So yes, you can live very well in the UK (or indeed in most of the world) if you can earn US salaries there.

 

[Embattle]

Those ratios are not adjusted to local salaries, which are 28.9% lower in the UK.

That may be, but it doesn't change my surprise. I'm also not surprised that the UK is 28.9% lower when you consider direct costs Americans have to pay for, such as Healthcare.

 

[Sylro]

That may be, but it doesn't change my surprise. I'm also not surprised that the UK is 28.9% lower when you consider direct costs Americans have to pay for, such as Healthcare.

When I moved from the US to the UK, the weekly shopping bill was the one that shocked me, I found myself paying well under half for my shopping compared to CA. Then car insurance was the next huge eye-opener - approx 1/3rd of the cost. OK so gas/petrol was 3x the price, but cars tend to be smaller and more economical too.

Housing was also very much cheaper - living outside of London I was able to find a decent sized house for about 1/3 of the price of my old place in LA. Similar size, brick construction etc. Less parking (1 garage vs 2) but a lot more rear garden.

The tax burden was similar, National Insurance (that mostly pays for the NHS and pensions) was about 1/3 of the combined US SS and Medical insurance, there is no separate vision and dental deduction.

Yes I took a pay cut, but the bit of money left over at the end of each month turned out to be more in the UK than in the US. I also do not need to worry about a medical even bankrupting me.... or being shot, or my daughter being murdered at school or traumatised during lock-down practise or.......

 

[Big Mouth Prick]

I'm done.

I talked myself down from hoping Sanders would make it in 2016 and into "just don't vote for the guy."

Now that's a radical position.

I'm 28. I'm finishing my (compsci with concentration in software development) bachelor's on my own dime and time and I have an associates (2-year) in electronics engineering from another school.

I don't want my tax dollars paying for ungrateful people's welfare, the future concentration camps and whatever nightmare this idiot has in mind that'll fuck the climate worse.

I am tired of stumping for solutions that are not only rejected, shit on and laughed out but now even trying to coalition with the centrists is not enough.

I think Spain's out even if I speak Spanish, because the young professionals from PR are all there already and I know they hate Americans as is.

I am debating Ireland, Norway or even Germany or France. I realize language is going to be tough but I am willing to give anything a shot.

Who needs software and some hardware people more?

 

[Pino90]

I think Spain's out even if I speak Spanish, because the young professionals from PR are all there already and I know they hate Americans as is.

This is utter BS. Many peoples here have problems with the US (especially after Iraq and Afghanistan and Lybia), not with the Americans per se. Spain is an extremely inclusive country. You will be welcome here. If your colleagues are hated, I'd dare to say that it speaks loudly about them and not about the people here.