WaveCore blasts gigabit-speed signals through 12-inch-thick concrete

Core drilling is tricky. Getting a 6 GHz signal through concrete is now easier.

See full article...

 

[nartreb]

I can sorta kinda see a use for this in situations where you have a business renting (parts of) a building and unwilling/unable to get permission to drill. But let's take another look at this: you have power and data going to each side of the wall. That means each side has access to the outside world. How often will you be unable to just go around the wall? There's usually going to be a way to run fiber along a less-hardened path (or use RF through good old air) for less than the price of this thing.

structural, load bearing cement walls in an office building.

Where do you live that permits concrete walls to be built in such a manner that they will collapse if you drill a single 3cm hole through any part of them? Getting sign-off for drilling is an annoying formality that eats valuable time, but it's just going to be a formality in cases where you're considering this device. (thick, uniform walls. Otherwise you'd put plain old wifi transmitters next to the thin part...)

 

[Golgo1]

I've worked in old buildings, modern buildings, listed buildings, art galleries and more and have never had much of a problem having holes drilled in brick, concrete, breeze blocks (except for a floor that had chunks of metal embedded seemingly at random throughout the concrete - that took a diamond driller a few attempts). Once it's drilled (and fire stopped where necessary) it's future proof!

But is it lawsuit proof?
Cause it doesnt matter how little problem you had drilling in all those materials, if it's not your wall, there's a good chance the owner won't be too pleased about it.

If only someone would write about a possible technical solution that didn't need to involve drilling holes.

 

[Albino_Boo]

But is it lawsuit proof?
Cause it doesnt matter how little problem you had drilling in all those materials, if it's not your wall, there's a good chance the owner won't be too pleased about it.

If only someone would write about a possible technical solution that didn't need to involve drilling holes.

Err who do think wanted the hole drilled?

 

[Golgo1]

Err who do think wanted the hole drilled?

According to half the comments here, any ol person.

Sure, if one has the situation where conduit/cables is an option, then yeah, it's probably better to go that way.
But suggesting there is litreally no use-case for this kind of device because 'drilling is easy', thats some pretty narrow thinking

 

[Albino_Boo]

According to half the comments here, any ol person.

Sure, if one has the situation where conduit/cables is an option, then yeah, it's probably better to go that way.
But suggesting there is litreally no use-case for this kind of device because 'drilling is easy', thats some pretty narrow thinking

My house was built before 1762. One of my walls is wattle and daub, probably medieval. Guess what I did when I ran Cat 6

 

[A_Very_Tired_Geek]

It is also concerning how many people seem to have missed that the article is about structural, load bearing cement walls in an office building. Either that, or about 30% of the Ars readership is sitting in their 10th story office looking at a concrete pylon thinking "man if I just had my Ryobi..."

That was me till I got an education on why you don't do that with firewalls. (Hint: fire will travel any kind of exposed insulation that isn't fire retardant. Most network cables aren't.)

Building codes vary from state to state and even localities in the US despite having a national building code standard. Various state and local governments have variants and additional items that are more location specific than the federal code can be. So what might be ok in one area, may be against code the next county or city over. So you shouldn't assume whats legal for you, is legal for everyone else.

But I do know about the permitting thing, not because I screwed up, but because I actually asked the Relevant Authorities before I just assumed and drilled a hole in a firewall. Got an education on why you don't do that, at least in my state at the time, and why it's a bad idea to run anything physical through a firewall without proper materials and planning.

While it's frustrating to deal with red tape, sometimes that red tape really does have a solid foundation in saving lives. Please don't be the one that compromised a building's fire integrity and get people killed.

 

[Albino_Boo]

That was me till I got an education on why you don't do that with firewalls. (Hint: fire will travel any kind of exposed insulation that isn't fire retardant. Most network cables aren't. It can also move through open gaps in an otherwise inflammable wall depending on circumstances.)

Hint, there are multiple solutions to fireproofing holes. Personally I used fire resistant sealant. Also in commercial buildings you should be using plenum grade which has a fire resistant layer of insulation.

 

[sbradford26]

I can sorta kinda see a use for this in situations where you have a business renting (parts of) a building and unwilling/unable to get permission to drill. But let's take another look at this: you have power and data going to each side of the wall. That means each side has access to the outside world. How often will you be unable to just go around the wall? There's usually going to be a way to run fiber along a less-hardened path (or use RF through good old air) for less than the price of this thing.



Where do you live that permits concrete walls to be built in such a manner that they will collapse if you drill a single 3cm hole through any part of them? Getting sign-off for drilling is an annoying formality that eats valuable time, but it's just going to be a formality in cases where you're considering this device. (thick, uniform walls. Otherwise you'd put plain old wifi transmitters next to the thin part...)

Sure a 3 cm hole isn't going to bring down the building. The thing with big buildings is that there is going to be a lot more than 1 3cm hole. How holes can you have in a concentrated location?, how many are already there?, what obstacles are in the wall that you can't see?. Determining that requires more than just a formality signing off.

 

[TaxiZaphod]

Remember, re-enforced concrete normally uses steel rebar; As such, it's also a Faraday Cage.

The rebar in a concrete wall isn't nearly enough to block wireless signals. Building a true Faraday cage is actually quite difficult.

 

[A_Very_Tired_Geek]

Hint, there are multiple solutions to fireproofing holes. Personally I used fire resistant sealant. Also in commercial buildings you should be using plenum grade which has a fire resistant layer of insulation.

Hint: not the point. You evidently didn't comprehend the rest of the comment, because that was exactly what I was talking about. Planning and proper materials.

 

[CableEng2019]

Perhaps you should read the product specs more carefully. They use 60GHz 5mm signals, not 6GHz U-NII-5 through U-NIi-7 frequencies.

https://cousides.sirv.com/collateral/Airvine-FAQ.pdf

 

[rocket_llama]

I can already hear my neighbor and her online groups of anti-EMF Luddites complaining about the general malaise, migraines, and depression caused by this tech.

 

[Emon]

Sounds interesting ....are there potentially any safety considerations ? I don't go around demolishing 5g towers, but the writing style of punching airway holes though concrete makes me wonder how safe it is to be around.

You're letting the words "punching through" be emotional for you. It's not a fucking laser cannon it's just powerful enough to get through concrete.

What comes out on the other side is far weaker because of the concrete.

If it was a hazard, you'd know, it would literally just heat up your body and make you feel hot.

 

[Emon]

I can already hear my neighbor and her online groups of anti-EMF Luddites complaining about the general malaise, migraines, and depression caused by this tech.

I always love the story about residents complaining about the 5G tower built near them.

...before it was completed and even turned on.

 

[Chuckstar]

I haven’t run into a lot of office buildings that don’t already have power and wired networking into every tenant space and don’t have windows penetrating the exterior. And I’m in the business.

I’m curious what the real market is, here, because I’m very much doubting its office buildings. For instance, warehouse logistics often ends up having there being a lot of space separated by firewalls and not much exterior building penetration. That might be a better fit.

 

[Mental Gear Reduction]

I'm a little late here, but:

The bandwidths that can work through these walls, like 3G, are being phased out, and the bandwidths that provide enough throughput for modern systems, like 5G, can't make it through.

You probably wanted "frequencies" instead of "bandwidths".

As is, that sentence is more or less gibberish. Understandable gibberish, mind, but nonsensical if you're paying attention.

 

[CableEng2019]

How can you push 4Gbps with a 6GHz carrier?

802.11be can deliver 40Gbps with 320MHz OFDMA 6GHz carriers

 

[Albino_Boo]

Hint: not the point. You evidently didn't comprehend the rest of the comment, because that was exactly what I was talking about. Planning and proper materials.

It's not rocket science. Any plumber or electrician that works on non residential property can tell you that. 30 seconds on YouTube can tell you how to do it

 

[Magius]

I'd be curious to see an actual RF visualization of one of these in action. How much of the RF signal gets backscattered into the room, and is it enough to cause interference with other devices in the general area?

I also wonder about the energy efficiency.

This seems to be the equivalent of someone pressing their ear against the wall to listen on a conversation. How much of the conversation is intelligible will depend on the ear's sensitivity (antenna gain?) and how loud people are speaking on the other side (energy transmission levels).

Given they are using such a high frequency, besides pumping lots of energy through multiple antennas, their "beam steering" algorithm is probably the only thing keeping efficiency (and backscatter?) at a fair level.

Anyone else with a take? It has been too long since my comm courses.

 

[alphaj]

For the insane expense, this seems like a solution looking for a problem. Surely, it can't cost $4k+ to evaluate a structure and drill a hole? Especially if the wall is even marginally thicker than 12 in.

Sure a 3 cm hole isn't going to bring down the building. The thing with big buildings is that there is going to be a lot more than 1 3cm hole. How holes can you have in a concentrated location?, how many are already there?, what obstacles are in the wall that you can't see?. Determining that requires more than just a formality signing off.

It's not likely to bring down the building, but modern buildings often have slabs (mainly floors) that are reinforced by long cable "tendons" run through them and placed under very high tension. That tension exerts a compressive force on the concrete, making the slab much more resistant to bending loads, and allowing for thinner slabs. If you drill in the wrong spot and nick one of those tendons, best case, you're in for a VERY expensive repair to replace it. Worst case, the tendon fails and rips itself out of the slab, and you're in for an EXTREMELY expensive repair, not to mention possible injuries. So it's fairly standard to use x-ray imaging on such slabs before making any penetration, which significantly increases the cost.

 

[RZetopan]

Remember, re-enforced concrete normally uses steel rebar; As such, it's also a Faraday Cage.

Since the rebar is spaced so far apart, it makes for a quite poor Faraday cage at the frequencies discussed.

I now see that this was previously mentioned prior to my response.

 

[mg224]

Minor quibble, but the mobile Gs are not frequency limited as the article implies. There are 5G hardware in the 6GHz spectrum, it’s not all millimetre wave, you know.

 

[Albino_Boo]

It's not likely to bring down the building, but modern buildings often have slabs (mainly floors) that are reinforced by long cable "tendons" run through them and placed under very high tension. That tension exerts a compressive force on the concrete, making the slab much more resistant to bending loads, and allowing for thinner slabs. If you drill in the wrong spot and nick one of those tendons, best case, you're in for a VERY expensive repair to replace it. Worst case, the tendon fails and rips itself out of the slab, and you're in for an EXTREMELY expensive repair, not to mention possible injuries. So it's fairly standard to use x-ray imaging on such slabs before making any penetration, which significantly increases the cost.

Or just look at the drawings of the structural and use a tape measure

 

[Golgo1]

I haven’t run into a lot of office buildings that don’t already have power and wired networking into every tenant space and don’t have windows penetrating the exterior. And I’m in the business.

I’m curious what the real market is, here, because I’m very much doubting its office buildings. For instance, warehouse logistics often ends up having there being a lot of space separated by firewalls and not much exterior building penetration. That might be a better fit.

It's certainly niche, but in my area, there are PLENTY of buildings used for office space that are not just old and concrete, but have been designated as historic.
Some were built before electricity wiring existed
Even IF someone owns their own building, they aren't allowed to just start drilling.

Folks commenting about how easy it is to install cable are really missing the point

 

[jeffreyindc]

Remember, re-enforced concrete normally uses steel rebar; As such, it's also a Faraday Cage.

No they aren't. They are not easy to setup and maintain. My dad who was a Cryptographic Communication Technician at GSA was working in a Secret Service SCIF, he and a co worker where using their cell phones to work out a problem. The door was open so they could connect. Someone closed the door and their signal did not drop. They reported to the Secret Service that their SCIF was not very sciffy. The moral of the story is that they are very hard to create and maintain.

 

[Mustachioed Copy Cat]

They weaponized that router to register via pareidolia as a superhero shaped like a pillow.

My rage is incandescent and eternal.

​

 

[Hapticz]

20 or so years ago I showed up to work at my office in the Kendall Square area of Cambridge, MA to find our 5 story building surrounded with "keep out" tape and a security guard at the door preventing anybody from entering. Apparently a construction crew renovating the ground floor had cut through a load bearing support, so the building inspector had rightfully pulled the occupancy permit for the building until the issue could be fixed.

So as the article clearly states, "you can't just put a hole in something that might be load-bearing or part of a fire control system" without being absolutely 100% sure it's safe to do so.

vast difference between core drilling a 4 inch hole for a steel conduit compared to some rambo 'renovation' contract crew jack hammering away enough structure to endanger an entire building!

with embedded rebar required in all structural bearing walls, theres the usual original building plans that are often very hard to come by or even still in existence for many structures , to locate the steel itself.

many plans are simple architectural wisps of what actually ends up being slapped into existence by contracting companies out to make a faster buck by 'reinterpreting' what is defined in the plans.

with newer buildings, there could be some additional thru holes specifically made for future access, but thats only wishful thinking on my part.

 

[opticron]

The bandwidths that can work through these walls, like 3G, are being phased out, and the bandwidths that provide enough throughput for modern systems, like 5G, can't make it through.

This statement is garbage and is in direct contradiction with later statements in the article. 3G was typically used on frequencies between 500MHz and 2GHz and 5G uses similar lower frequencies with additional upper frequencies. Low-band 5G can absolutely punch through walls just like older tech.

There's PoE or barrel connector power, and RJ45 ethernet in the 1, 2.5, 5, and 10Gbps sizes.

Sizes? Really?

 

[jhodge]

Or just look at the drawings of the structural and use a tape measure

Please never come anywhere near any construction project I'm involved in. I'm not a construction pro by any means, but I've been involved enough to know that trusting the drawings, even the "as-builts" for something as critical as this is simply wrong. If you must cut through a slab, you suck it up and deal with the ground penetrating radar crew, the permitting, etc. Otherwise you're just begging for trouble.

 

[Albino_Boo]

Please never come anywhere near any construction project I'm involved in. I'm not a construction pro by any means, but I've been involved enough to know that trusting the drawings, even the "as-builts" for something as critical as this is simply wrong. If you must cut through a slab, you suck it up and deal with the ground penetrating radar crew, the permitting, etc. Otherwise you're just begging for trouble.

I've been in charge of building 6 acre buildings. I've run facilities management on the UK 2nd biggest landowner. I've put in 20,000 ton ship lift. I delt with rewiring a schedule ancient monument. This is not difficult.

 

[Chuckstar]

It's certainly niche, but in my area, there are PLENTY of buildings used for office space that are not just old and concrete, but have been designated as historic.
Some were built before electricity wiring existed
Even IF someone owns their own building, they aren't allowed to just start drilling.

Folks commenting about how easy it is to install cable are really missing the point

In today’s world, if they are already used for office, they are already wired for networking. Just like even if they were built before electricity, pretty sure they have electricity in them, now.

 

[jhodge]

I've been in charge of building 6 acre buildings. I've run facilities management on the UK 2nd biggest landowner. I've put in 20,000 ton ship lift. I delt with rewiring a schedule ancient monument. This is not difficult.

And you've made it a habit to core drill based on drawings and a tape measure? You must have more detailed and accurate drawings than I'm accustomed to on that side of the pond.

 

[spaceminions]

This is not a weird idea to me. All they appear to be doing is accepting that crossing the barrier attenuates the signal just as much as if you had a very long distance line of sight link. So by the magic of buying two radios solely to cross that barrier, you can save the link budget of your actual equipment for covering the room instead of powering thru concrete. And while regular wired networking is a thing, it's still possible that one or another combination of carrier and phone has had some areas where service has regressed, even though as a standard 5g isn't actually worse. Maybe they didn't get it to work standalone, or they changed around which towers have what bands aimed where, or the phone that you got which supports 5g doesn't happen to support the UHF band that is actually covering the area in question while your old one did.

 

[Golgo1]

In today’s world, if they are already used for office, they are already wired for networking. Just like even if they were built before electricity, pretty sure they have electricity in them, now.

That is a VERY big assumption on the state of building codes across the world.

Even IF a building was wired with power, why would you assume it was done only after computer networking was invented?
And common enough to consider adding for tennants?
AND cheap enough for a building owner to consider it a worthwhile expense?

A building built in 1800, then wired for power in 1930, probably didn't run cat6 along with their knob-and-tube
If one needed a network in such a building (especially with historic status), they could (ostensibly) buy one of these devices, or spend more than that, and wait for years for approvals to possibly be given.

 

[Golgo1]

This is not a weird idea to me. All they appear to be doing is accepting that crossing the barrier attenuates the signal just as much as if you had a very long distance line of sight link. So by the magic of buying two radios solely to cross that barrier, you can save the link budget of your actual equipment for covering the room instead of powering thru concrete. And while regular wired networking is a thing, it's still possible that one or another combination of carrier and phone has had some areas where service has regressed, even though as a standard 5g isn't actually worse. Maybe they didn't get it to work standalone, or they changed around which towers have what bands aimed where, or the phone that you got which supports 5g doesn't happen to support the UHF band that is actually covering the area in question while your old one did.

In this scenario they would need to have 3 radios.
Because the magic of buying two is so you can take one apart and show whats inside

 

[Chuckstar]

That is a VERY big assumption on the state of building codes across the world.

Even IF a building was wired with power, why would you assume it was done only after computer networking was invented?

I don’t know where you got that question, but I didn’t say anything of the sort. It was two sentences. You can’t read two sentences before replying?

And common enough to consider adding for tennants?
AND cheap enough for a building owner to consider it a worthwhile expense?

A building built in 1800, then wired for power in 1930, probably didn't run cat6 along with their knob-and-tube
If one needed a network in such a building (especially with historic status), they could (ostensibly) buy one of these devices, or spend more than that, and wait for years for approvals to possibly be given.

You are suggesting a slew of office buildings that have been used as office for the last hundred years without telephones? And for the last 30 without computer networking? Where are these buildings? Do you really have any idea what you’re talking about?

 

[rbryanh]

Give me ethernet or give me death.

 

[Golgo1]

I don’t know where you got that question, but I didn’t say anything of the sort. It was two sentences. You can’t read two sentences before replying?

You are suggesting a slew of office buildings that have been used as office for the last hundred years without telephones? And for the last 30 without computer networking? Where are these buildings? Do you really have any idea what you’re talking about?

That specific use-case is certainly not huge, but yes, there are definitely buildings that are being repurposed from residential, or retail, into a more modern office

Also, I did misread a sentence
"Just like even if they were built before electricity, pretty sure they have electricity in them, now."
I agree is most likely.
But I read it as
"Just like even if they were built before electricity, pretty sure they have networking in them, now."
Which is not at all a guarantee, leading to the rest of my post. My bad

 

[Mechjaz]

Fine, Ars, I'll buy (finally) buy that hammer drill (that I've been coveting for two years). If you insist. The things I do for Ethernet.

 

[taxythingy]

Remember, re-enforced concrete normally uses steel rebar; As such, it's also a Faraday Cage.

5 and 6 GHz waves will travel through the enormous gaps in rebar with a little attenuation.

2.4 GHz is getting close to or larger than the mesh sizes often used, with a wavelength of about 12.5 cm. That's going to find it harder, but it's better at travelling through the bulk material.