Tesla is recalling over 475,000 Model 3 and Model S vehicles

NHTSA fingers faulty wiring harness in the Model 3 and frunk latch in the Model S .

Read the whole story

 

[real mikeb_60]

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220105-lithium-batteries-big-unanswered-question

> The current method of simply shredding everything and trying to purify a complex mixture results in expensive processes with low value products," says Andrew Abbott, a physical chemist at the University of Leicester. As a result, it costs more to recycle them than to mine more lithium to make new ones. Also, since large scale, cheap ways to recycle Li batteries are lagging behind, only about 5% of Li batteries are recycled globally, meaning the majority are simply going to waste.

Yep EV cars are saving the planet...

You should also note that in terms of units produced there are orders of magnitude more Li-Ion batteries in computers, phones, cameras, other personal electronics, electric tools and implements, even airplanes. Then, there are the primary lithium batteries (once-through, no recharge) in many devices. So far, I don't see cars adding up to a lot of *lithium batteries* in terms of units to recycle, though in tons it might be closer to the rest.

You forget to note that an EV uses more than three orders of magnitude more Li-Ion batteries than a smartphone (example: Tesla Model 3 = 50,000-75,000Wh; iPhone 13 = 11Wh). One Model 3 contains the lithium-ion battery equivalent of 4,500 iPhones 13s! EVs already accounted for 42% of the world lithium-ion battery market in 2020, and that number is only going to grow.

That's the point: there's a lot of units of phones and so on out there, but each one is tiny. It's not much more work to collect one car than to collect one phone, but you get 1000x as much stuff to recycle when you have a car. Accordingly, we barely recycle phones, whereas we will be recycling cars (once they start reaching their end of life, which for the most part they haven't yet).

That was exactly my underlying point. There are huge numbers of small lithium batteries out there, approximately none of which actually get recycled into something useful. Car batteries are big enough that they can't just be ignored and trashed, at least easily.

The ideal, believe it or not, should be to copy what happens with 12V car batteries. A large proportion of them *is* recycled, and reused to make new batteries, keeping the lead out of the general waste stream. Of course, while a massively polluting process if not done right, lead-acid battery recycling is fairly simple from mechanical and chemical standpoints. Lithium batteries are more complicated, and an effective and cheap process isn't around yet, at least at scale.

 

[android_alpaca]

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220105-lithium-batteries-big-unanswered-question

> The current method of simply shredding everything and trying to purify a complex mixture results in expensive processes with low value products," says Andrew Abbott, a physical chemist at the University of Leicester. As a result, it costs more to recycle them than to mine more lithium to make new ones. Also, since large scale, cheap ways to recycle Li batteries are lagging behind, only about 5% of Li batteries are recycled globally, meaning the majority are simply going to waste.

Yep EV cars are saving the planet...

You should also note that in terms of units produced there are orders of magnitude more Li-Ion batteries in computers, phones, cameras, other personal electronics, electric tools and implements, even airplanes. Then, there are the primary lithium batteries (once-through, no recharge) in many devices. So far, I don't see cars adding up to a lot of *lithium batteries* in terms of units to recycle, though in tons it might be closer to the rest.

You forget to note that an EV uses more than three orders of magnitude more Li-Ion batteries than a smartphone (example: Tesla Model 3 = 50,000-75,000Wh; iPhone 13 = 11Wh). One Model 3 contains the lithium-ion battery equivalent of 4,500 iPhones 13s! EVs already accounted for 42% of the world lithium-ion battery market in 2020, and that number is only going to grow.

That's the point: there's a lot of units of phones and so on out there, but each one is tiny. It's not much more work to collect one car than to collect one phone, but you get 1000x as much stuff to recycle when you have a car. Accordingly, we barely recycle phones, whereas we will be recycling cars (once they start reaching their end of life, which for the most part they haven't yet).

That was exactly my underlying point. There are huge numbers of small lithium batteries out there, approximately none of which actually get recycled into something useful. Car batteries are big enough that they can't just be ignored and trashed, at least easily.

The ideal, believe it or not, should be to copy what happens with 12V car batteries. A large proportion of them *is* recycled, and reused to make new batteries, keeping the lead out of the general waste stream. Of course, while a massively polluting process if not done right, lead-acid battery recycling is fairly simple from mechanical and chemical standpoints. Lithium batteries are more complicated, and an effective and cheap process isn't around yet, at least at scale.

Honest question, has anyone actually tried to figure out how often does a EV battery actually goes into the landfill? I took a quick look on Ebay and there are a lot of Tesla batteries and parts scavenged from totaled vehicles.

So all that is remaining are the cells/modules that are completely dead due to over-use or more likely due to mechanical/thermal damage.

So there is already a financial incentive like there is was 12V lead-acid batteries to recover/recycle/reuse some EV batteries at least. Although I don't know if that's just kicking the can down the road so to speak... because if the battery parts are reused... the return on trying to properly recycle a single battery module is less due to the lack of economies of scale.

 

[numerobis]

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220105-lithium-batteries-big-unanswered-question

> The current method of simply shredding everything and trying to purify a complex mixture results in expensive processes with low value products," says Andrew Abbott, a physical chemist at the University of Leicester. As a result, it costs more to recycle them than to mine more lithium to make new ones. Also, since large scale, cheap ways to recycle Li batteries are lagging behind, only about 5% of Li batteries are recycled globally, meaning the majority are simply going to waste.

Yep EV cars are saving the planet...

You should also note that in terms of units produced there are orders of magnitude more Li-Ion batteries in computers, phones, cameras, other personal electronics, electric tools and implements, even airplanes. Then, there are the primary lithium batteries (once-through, no recharge) in many devices. So far, I don't see cars adding up to a lot of *lithium batteries* in terms of units to recycle, though in tons it might be closer to the rest.

You forget to note that an EV uses more than three orders of magnitude more Li-Ion batteries than a smartphone (example: Tesla Model 3 = 50,000-75,000Wh; iPhone 13 = 11Wh). One Model 3 contains the lithium-ion battery equivalent of 4,500 iPhones 13s! EVs already accounted for 42% of the world lithium-ion battery market in 2020, and that number is only going to grow.

That's the point: there's a lot of units of phones and so on out there, but each one is tiny. It's not much more work to collect one car than to collect one phone, but you get 1000x as much stuff to recycle when you have a car. Accordingly, we barely recycle phones, whereas we will be recycling cars (once they start reaching their end of life, which for the most part they haven't yet).

That was exactly my underlying point. There are huge numbers of small lithium batteries out there, approximately none of which actually get recycled into something useful. Car batteries are big enough that they can't just be ignored and trashed, at least easily.

The ideal, believe it or not, should be to copy what happens with 12V car batteries. A large proportion of them *is* recycled, and reused to make new batteries, keeping the lead out of the general waste stream. Of course, while a massively polluting process if not done right, lead-acid battery recycling is fairly simple from mechanical and chemical standpoints. Lithium batteries are more complicated, and an effective and cheap process isn't around yet, at least at scale.

Honest question, has anyone actually tried to figure out how often does a EV battery actually goes into the landfill? I took a quick look on Ebay and there are a lot of Tesla batteries and parts scavenged from totaled vehicles.

So all that is remaining are the cells/modules that are completely dead due to over-use or more likely due to mechanical/thermal damage.

So there is already a financial incentive like there is was 12V lead-acid batteries to recover/recycle/reuse some EV batteries at least. Although I don't know if that's just kicking the can down the road so to speak... because if the battery parts are reused... the return on trying to properly recycle a single battery module is less due to the lack of economies of scale.

There's artisinal reuse right now, but that doesn't scale to the volumes we're going to see in 5-10 years. My burner friends really like Leaf packs, they're cheap and easy to work with. Lovingly test each cell, toss the bad ones, and you can get power at the camp. I'm not sure if they recycle the bad ones or just landfill them.

This process should ideally be replaced by put the pack on a machine that tests each cell, puts the bad ones in the recycling bin, and packs the good ones into stationary storage units. It's too expensive to do that by hand but in volume it'll be worth building robots for it.

 

[real mikeb_60]

... original post referred to: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2022 ... d-question ... removed for quote depth limit

You forget to note that an EV uses more than three orders of magnitude more Li-Ion batteries than a smartphone (example: Tesla Model 3 = 50,000-75,000Wh; iPhone 13 = 11Wh). One Model 3 contains the lithium-ion battery equivalent of 4,500 iPhones 13s! EVs already accounted for 42% of the world lithium-ion battery market in 2020, and that number is only going to grow.

That's the point: there's a lot of units of phones and so on out there, but each one is tiny. It's not much more work to collect one car than to collect one phone, but you get 1000x as much stuff to recycle when you have a car. Accordingly, we barely recycle phones, whereas we will be recycling cars (once they start reaching their end of life, which for the most part they haven't yet).

That was exactly my underlying point. There are huge numbers of small lithium batteries out there, approximately none of which actually get recycled into something useful. Car batteries are big enough that they can't just be ignored and trashed, at least easily.

The ideal, believe it or not, should be to copy what happens with 12V car batteries. A large proportion of them *is* recycled, and reused to make new batteries, keeping the lead out of the general waste stream. Of course, while a massively polluting process if not done right, lead-acid battery recycling is fairly simple from mechanical and chemical standpoints. Lithium batteries are more complicated, and an effective and cheap process isn't around yet, at least at scale.

Honest question, has anyone actually tried to figure out how often does a EV battery actually goes into the landfill? I took a quick look on Ebay and there are a lot of Tesla batteries and parts scavenged from totaled vehicles.

So all that is remaining are the cells/modules that are completely dead due to over-use or more likely due to mechanical/thermal damage.

So there is already a financial incentive like there is was 12V lead-acid batteries to recover/recycle/reuse some EV batteries at least. Although I don't know if that's just kicking the can down the road so to speak... because if the battery parts are reused... the return on trying to properly recycle a single battery module is less due to the lack of economies of scale.

There's artisinal reuse right now, but that doesn't scale to the volumes we're going to see in 5-10 years. My burner friends really like Leaf packs, they're cheap and easy to work with. Lovingly test each cell, toss the bad ones, and you can get power at the camp. I'm not sure if they recycle the bad ones or just landfill them.

This process should ideally be replaced by put the pack on a machine that tests each cell, puts the bad ones in the recycling bin, and packs the good ones into stationary storage units. It's too expensive to do that by hand but in volume it'll be worth building robots for it.

Prius HEV batteries are not lithium (except in the newest ones or the PHEVs), but "refurb" is definitely a cottage industry. Basically as you describe the Leaf people: test each cell, and assemble packs from the good ones. Not sure how the bad ones are disposed of; that's a good question to ask the supplier. There's less incentive to do that now, though, because Toyota has dropped the price on a new battery to very near the price of an artisan refurb, with a 2-3 year warranty instead of a few months to a year. Prius (and other Toyota) NiMH batteries as delivered with the car typically last 15+ years and 150K+ miles, with little deterioration until they throw their death codes.

 

[android_alpaca]

You should also note that in terms of units produced there are orders of magnitude more Li-Ion batteries in computers, phones, cameras, other personal electronics, electric tools and implements, even airplanes. Then, there are the primary lithium batteries (once-through, no recharge) in many devices. So far, I don't see cars adding up to a lot of *lithium batteries* in terms of units to recycle, though in tons it might be closer to the rest.

You forget to note that an EV uses more than three orders of magnitude more Li-Ion batteries than a smartphone (example: Tesla Model 3 = 50,000-75,000Wh; iPhone 13 = 11Wh). One Model 3 contains the lithium-ion battery equivalent of 4,500 iPhones 13s! EVs already accounted for 42% of the world lithium-ion battery market in 2020, and that number is only going to grow.

That's the point: there's a lot of units of phones and so on out there, but each one is tiny. It's not much more work to collect one car than to collect one phone, but you get 1000x as much stuff to recycle when you have a car. Accordingly, we barely recycle phones, whereas we will be recycling cars (once they start reaching their end of life, which for the most part they haven't yet).

That was exactly my underlying point. There are huge numbers of small lithium batteries out there, approximately none of which actually get recycled into something useful. Car batteries are big enough that they can't just be ignored and trashed, at least easily.

The ideal, believe it or not, should be to copy what happens with 12V car batteries. A large proportion of them *is* recycled, and reused to make new batteries, keeping the lead out of the general waste stream. Of course, while a massively polluting process if not done right, lead-acid battery recycling is fairly simple from mechanical and chemical standpoints. Lithium batteries are more complicated, and an effective and cheap process isn't around yet, at least at scale.

Honest question, has anyone actually tried to figure out how often does a EV battery actually goes into the landfill? I took a quick look on Ebay and there are a lot of Tesla batteries and parts scavenged from totaled vehicles.

So all that is remaining are the cells/modules that are completely dead due to over-use or more likely due to mechanical/thermal damage.

So there is already a financial incentive like there is was 12V lead-acid batteries to recover/recycle/reuse some EV batteries at least. Although I don't know if that's just kicking the can down the road so to speak... because if the battery parts are reused... the return on trying to properly recycle a single battery module is less due to the lack of economies of scale.

There's artisinal reuse right now, but that doesn't scale to the volumes we're going to see in 5-10 years. My burner friends really like Leaf packs, they're cheap and easy to work with. Lovingly test each cell, toss the bad ones, and you can get power at the camp. I'm not sure if they recycle the bad ones or just landfill them.

This process should ideally be replaced by put the pack on a machine that tests each cell, puts the bad ones in the recycling bin, and packs the good ones into stationary storage units. It's too expensive to do that by hand but in volume it'll be worth building robots for it.

I'm not completely convinced the number of recovered battery packs being in 5-10 years would be an issue if they can be re-integrated as a straight up replacement part for the same brand/model EV like on Rich's Rebuilds instead of just for artisanl/DIY storage projects.

I think a some people would risk installing a recovered battery pack in their EV versus paying 2-3x to get it done by the OEM... just like how a lot of people will use bumpers/parts scavenged from the junkyard to fix external damage. Apparently the retreaded tire market is still chugging along as well. So I think what the future cost of a new OEM battery in 5-10 years... if it drops a lot (as we all hope)... then maybe people will be less inclined to re-use a scavenger battery pack in their own BEV.

If OEM battery replacement still relatively high... a lot of people might reuse scavenged battery packs - especially future lower income BEV owners who got a used BEV... but cannot afford a full price OEM battery repair/replacement if prices/costs don't drop fast enough in 5-10 years.

 

[manifeast]

No one said it was, but Elon was sure pumping, pumping while he was trying to sell stock.

What the hell are you talking about? He literally started tanking Tesla stock by pointing out that the Hertz deal wasn't even signed yet.

You are either a liar or extremely ignorant.

Elon pumps and dumps like any other corporate executive. The difference is, he seldom keeps what he's doing a secret. That's both refreshing and annoying. No, I don't own any Tesla stock personally, though I can't guarantee that it isn't part of some mutual fund or retirement portfolio.

Why would he need to pump and dump? He doesn't trade. He basically just holds his Tesla shares, and the only exception is when he needed to pay taxes due to exercising options late least year. And he didn't even sell at the top. In fact, he sold at the lowest points in months.

 

[manifeast]

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220105-lithium-batteries-big-unanswered-question

> The current method of simply shredding everything and trying to purify a complex mixture results in expensive processes with low value products," says Andrew Abbott, a physical chemist at the University of Leicester. As a result, it costs more to recycle them than to mine more lithium to make new ones. Also, since large scale, cheap ways to recycle Li batteries are lagging behind, only about 5% of Li batteries are recycled globally, meaning the majority are simply going to waste.

Yep EV cars are saving the planet...

Huh? Panasonic has started using recycled batteries through Redwood Material, and the cost of those raw materials is lower than usual.

Close to 100% of an EV battery can be recycled.

 

[manifeast]

> What does Tesla do with old EV batteries, and when?

Basically nothing thats the problem.

Wrong again. Please stop lying.

The problem is most people are fools and completely taken by the dishonest claims by people that EV cars are green because they dont have smoke coming out the back. Basically none of them especially here as an example as the question about the batteries.

The problem is that you are the biggest fool for spewing false claims. EVs are greener than ICE vehicles. Nothing, ever, is 100% green. But we don't need 100% green. We need green enough.

Im not here to defend batteries in phones, but this is our planet, and cars are significantly bigger than phones and if half the world has hundreds of kgs of batteries which get disposed into the environment, thats a problem we cannot run away from.

You are talking nonsense. Batteries are being reused and recycled, and in the future, most materials for new batteries will be recycled from old ones.

 

[kkeane]

I'm not completely convinced the number of recovered battery packs being in 5-10 years would be an issue if they can be re-integrated as a straight up replacement part for the same brand/model EV like on Rich's Rebuilds instead of just for artisanl/DIY storage projects.

I think a some people would risk installing a recovered battery pack in their EV versus paying 2-3x to get it done by the OEM... just like how a lot of people will use bumpers/parts scavenged from the junkyard to fix external damage.

The problem is timing. In a young battery car, you don't need a battery replacement, so there is no market for such recovered batteries yet. And in an older battery car, you'd be replacing the battery with one that is just as old.

 

[android_alpaca]

I'm not completely convinced the number of recovered battery packs being in 5-10 years would be an issue if they can be re-integrated as a straight up replacement part for the same brand/model EV like on Rich's Rebuilds instead of just for artisanl/DIY storage projects.

I think a some people would risk installing a recovered battery pack in their EV versus paying 2-3x to get it done by the OEM... just like how a lot of people will use bumpers/parts scavenged from the junkyard to fix external damage.

The problem is timing. In a young battery car, you don't need a battery replacement, so there is no market for such recovered batteries yet. And in an older battery car, you'd be replacing the battery with one that is just as old.

Old batteries can still be quite functional. The Oxford Electric Bell has been been continuously powered by the same battery since 1840.

Lithium ion batteries degrade primarily from charge-discharge cycles. If you store a battery pack at a relatively constant temperature with managed partial state of charge... it will last years without significant degradation compared to an equivalent battery that is undergoing constant charging/discharging in external temperate. A 15-year old battery with 100 charge cycles is going to be in a lot better shape than a 15-year old battery that has gone through 300 charge cycle.

Finally... if the number of EVs on the being produced grows geometrically... for the next 20+ years, the "crop" of salvaged batteries from wrecked slightly newer will mean that there will also be plenty of newer batteries for older BEVs to use. For example, AFAIK, a 2013 Model S can use the battery pack from a 2021 Model S... similarly a 2017 Model 3 can use the battery pack from a 2021 Model 3/Y and there are 30x more 2021 Model 3/Y on the road... so in the next 5-10 years... there will invariably be a fair number of Model 3/Y wrecks... and so by 2027-2032... there will be a lot of newer/less used battery packs as spares for 10-15 few surviving year old 2017 Model 3 that weren't destroyed due to driver exuberance or bad luck encounter with a bad driver (I watch Wham Bam Teslacam on Youtube).

If you think about it... that's a little bit like how Social Security is funded as people aged 18-62 are able to make small contributions that accumulate to be big payouts to surviving people over the age of 63.

 

[TeknoRapture]

You guys really need a good proof reader, your articles are CONSTANTLY full of typos and other errors. Hire me! I have a ton of experience with this!

 

[real mikeb_60]

You guys really need a good proof reader, your articles are CONSTANTLY full of typos and other errors. Hire me! I have a ton of experience with this!

1) statement not objectively true. Ars articles that are produced during the week (not on weekends) tend to be among the better-edited things I find online. Whether that's due to proofreaders or software is unknowable from a reader's standpoint; it just is. That said, when something is obviously rapidly produced by a writer who doesn't have much review, yes, typos are likely. I'm infamous for that when making comments, as well.
2) are you willing to work for minimum wage?

 

[real mikeb_60]

I'm not completely convinced the number of recovered battery packs being in 5-10 years would be an issue if they can be re-integrated as a straight up replacement part for the same brand/model EV like on Rich's Rebuilds instead of just for artisanl/DIY storage projects.

I think a some people would risk installing a recovered battery pack in their EV versus paying 2-3x to get it done by the OEM... just like how a lot of people will use bumpers/parts scavenged from the junkyard to fix external damage.

The problem is timing. In a young battery car, you don't need a battery replacement, so there is no market for such recovered batteries yet. And in an older battery car, you'd be replacing the battery with one that is just as old.

Old batteries can still be quite functional. The Oxford Electric Bell has been been continuously powered by the same battery since 1840.

Lithium ion batteries degrade primarily from charge-discharge cycles. If you store a battery pack at a relatively constant temperature with managed partial state of charge... it will last years without significant degradation compared to an equivalent battery that is undergoing constant charging/discharging in external temperate. A 15-year old battery with 100 charge cycles is going to be in a lot better shape than a 15-year old battery that has gone through 300 charge cycle.

Finally... if the number of EVs on the being produced grows geometrically... for the next 20+ years, the "crop" of salvaged batteries from wrecked slightly newer will mean that there will also be plenty of newer batteries for older BEVs to use. For example, AFAIK, a 2013 Model S can use the battery pack from a 2021 Model S... similarly a 2017 Model 3 can use the battery pack from a 2021 Model 3/Y and there are 30x more 2021 Model 3/Y on the road... so in the next 5-10 years... there will invariably be a fair number of Model 3/Y wrecks... and so by 2027-2032... there will be a lot of newer/less used battery packs as spares for 10-15 few surviving year old 2017 Model 3 that weren't destroyed due to driver exuberance or bad luck encounter with a bad driver (I watch Wham Bam Teslacam on Youtube).

If you think about it... that's a little bit like how Social Security is funded as people aged 18-62 are able to make small contributions that accumulate to be big payouts to surviving people over the age of 63.

Bolt is another example. The recall affects all of them. What GM is essentially doing is replacing all of the batteries, from serial no. 1, with the most recent battery design and manufacturing methods. It fits all of them, requiring only minor modification to the software (essentially, "re-learning" the actual capacity, which for older cars is larger than the original). What GM is doing with the batteries that are removed by the dealers and shipped back is not known at this time (Jonathan? Any news?).

Not sure about how the Social Security reference applies, though.

 

[rosen380]

You guys really need a good proof reader, your articles are CONSTANTLY full of typos and other errors. Hire me! I have a ton of experience with this!

1) statement not objectively true. Ars articles that are produced during the week (not on weekends) tend to be among the better-edited things I find online. Whether that's due to proofreaders or software is unknowable from a reader's standpoint; it just is. That said, when something is obviously rapidly produced by a writer who doesn't have much review, yes, typos are likely. I'm infamous for that when making comments, as well.
2) are you willing to work for minimum wage?

I know the company I work for prefers to hire people that choose to bad mouth them in public and beg for jobs outside of normal channels.

 

[barich]

You guys really need a good proof reader proofreader,; your articles are CONSTANTLY full of typos and other errors. Hire me! I have a ton of experience with this!

FTFY.

You don't use two spaces after a period unless you're using a typewriter, by the way.

 

[rosen380]

You guys really need a good proof reader proofreader,; your articles are CONSTANTLY full of typos and other errors. Hire me! I have a ton of experience with this!

You don't use two spaces after a period unless you're using a typewriter, by the way.

I never knew that. I've been using two spaces after a period in basically all (electronic) documents I've ever written (and never used a typewriter).

Is there a particular reason why you'd use two spaces after a period on a typewriter, but not in an email or word doc, etc?

 

[barich]

You guys really need a good proof reader proofreader,; your articles are CONSTANTLY full of typos and other errors. Hire me! I have a ton of experience with this!

You don't use two spaces after a period unless you're using a typewriter, by the way.

I never knew that. I've been using two spaces after a period in basically all (electronic) documents I've ever written (and never used a typewriter).

Is there a particular reason why you'd use two spaces after a period on a typewriter, but not in an email or word doc, etc?

It's really related to monospaced vs. proportional typefaces. It's not seen as necessary with proportional typefaces.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... 180974754/

 

[numerobis]

You guys really need a good proof reader proofreader,; your articles are CONSTANTLY full of typos and other errors. Hire me! I have a ton of experience with this!

You don't use two spaces after a period unless you're using a typewriter, by the way.

I never knew that. I've been using two spaces after a period in basically all (electronic) documents I've ever written (and never used a typewriter).

Is there a particular reason why you'd use two spaces after a period on a typewriter, but not in an email or word doc, etc?

In typesetting, the space after a period should be more than the space between two words. In a monospaced font, your choices are one space or two spaces, and the system is probably not doing any typesetting for you, so you do two spaces between sentences.

In a variable-space font, you can have an n-width space between words and an m-width space between sentences and it looks better. And the system is necessarily typesetting. So let the system figure this shit out on its own. Most such systems ignore multiplicity in spaces so it doesn't matter at all.

Word, of course, does the wrong thing, as it usually does when typesetting is involved, so there it does matter whether you use one or two spaces.

 

[Uxorious]

Tesla can't even finish the cars they are constructing new; how are they going to fix these cars?

 

[Timtheenchanter]

Tesla can't even finish the cars they are constructing new; how are they going to fix these cars?

This is an article about tesla, but I think you are talking about GM.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/chip-sh ... -vehicles/

 

[Uragan]

Tesla can't even finish the cars they are constructing new; how are they going to fix these cars?

This is an article about tesla, but I think you are talking about GM.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/chip-sh ... -vehicles/

You'll do anything to simp for Tesla and Musk. They said "Tesla".

Tesla has problems.

 

[Timtheenchanter]

Tesla can't even finish the cars they are constructing new; how are they going to fix these cars?

This is an article about tesla, but I think you are talking about GM.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/chip-sh ... -vehicles/

You'll do anything to simp for Tesla and Musk. They said "Tesla".

Tesla has problems.

Maybe he meant Ford?
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/ford-recal ... eliveries/

 

[Uragan]

Tesla can't even finish the cars they are constructing new; how are they going to fix these cars?

This is an article about tesla, but I think you are talking about GM.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/chip-sh ... -vehicles/

You'll do anything to simp for Tesla and Musk. They said "Tesla".

Tesla has problems.

Maybe he meant Ford?
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/ford-recal ... eliveries/

I see... you're being purposely obtuse.

 

[Timtheenchanter]

Tesla can't even finish the cars they are constructing new; how are they going to fix these cars?

This is an article about tesla, but I think you are talking about GM.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/chip-sh ... -vehicles/

You'll do anything to simp for Tesla and Musk. They said "Tesla".

Tesla has problems.

Maybe he meant Ford?
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/ford-recal ... eliveries/

I see... you're being purposely obtuse.

Not particularly. This is an article about a recall, which all automakers have to manage (though this particular recall is pretty minor).

The view that tesla has serious quality problems is a myth, all automakers have some quality problems and tesla isn’t the best, but they are not an outlier.

 

[Ochre_face]

Tesla can't even finish the cars they are constructing new; how are they going to fix these cars?

This is an article about tesla, but I think you are talking about GM.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/chip-sh ... -vehicles/

You'll do anything to simp for Tesla and Musk. They said "Tesla".

Tesla has problems.

Maybe he meant Ford?
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/ford-recal ... eliveries/

I see... you're being purposely obtuse.

Not particularly. This is an article about a recall, which all automakers have to manage (though this particular recall is pretty minor).

The view that tesla has serious quality problems is a myth, all automakers have some quality problems and tesla isn’t the best, but they are not an outlier.

Your graph puts Tesla seventh from the bottom of that list, tied with Mitsubishi. They're #28 out of 34 (including Polestar).

Now, I haven't bothered to calculate confidence intervals but I'd say there's a reasonable chance that Tesla and the other six are in fact outliers statistically speaking.

 

[ScifiGeek]

Tesla can't even finish the cars they are constructing new; how are they going to fix these cars?

This is an article about tesla, but I think you are talking about GM.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/chip-sh ... -vehicles/

You'll do anything to simp for Tesla and Musk. They said "Tesla".

Tesla has problems.

Maybe he meant Ford?
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/ford-recal ... eliveries/

I see... you're being purposely obtuse.

Not particularly. This is an article about a recall, which all automakers have to manage (though this particular recall is pretty minor).

The view that tesla has serious quality problems is a myth, all automakers have some quality problems and tesla isn’t the best, but they are not an outlier.

Also CR:
https://insideevs.com/news/549130/consu ... poor-2021/
"Consumer Reports Still Ranks Tesla Reliability 27th Out Of 28"

 

[Timtheenchanter]

Your graph puts Tesla seventh from the bottom of that list, tied with Mitsubishi. They're #28 out of 34 (including Polestar).

Now, I haven't bothered to calculate confidence intervals but I'd say there's a reasonable chance that Tesla and the other six are in fact outliers statistically speaking.

My point isn’t that tesla is among the best in reliability, just that the BS you read exaggerates issues. Tesla has the highest customer satisfaction of any auto brand. When you do need tesla service, the technicians come to fix it at your house, office, wherever you want.

But if high initial quality is the most important thing to you, by all means stick with Buick, dodge or Chevy.

 

[Tonkaman]

Your graph puts Tesla seventh from the bottom of that list, tied with Mitsubishi. They're #28 out of 34 (including Polestar).

Now, I haven't bothered to calculate confidence intervals but I'd say there's a reasonable chance that Tesla and the other six are in fact outliers statistically speaking.

My point isn’t that tesla is among the best in reliability, just that the BS you read exaggerates issues. Tesla has the highest customer satisfaction of any auto brand. When you do need tesla service, the technicians come to fix it at your house, office, wherever you want.

But if high initial quality is the most important thing to you, by all means stick with Buick, dodge or Chevy.

The point of caring about initial quality is so those service visits, whether to a service center, dealership, or mobile service aren't needed in the first place. Tesla's service wait times have been getting longer and longer the more cars they sell, specifically because their lack of caring about initial quality results in the queue for service after delivery getting clogged up more and more.

Some people on reddit have been complaining about being scheduled for Tesla service 3 months out. Meanwhile I can drop my car off at the Chevy dealer on Monday and have it back by the end of the week if it's a major issue. I can drop it off for it's 100k mile service and have it back by the end of the day.

 

[Ochre_face]

Your graph puts Tesla seventh from the bottom of that list, tied with Mitsubishi. They're #28 out of 34 (including Polestar).

Now, I haven't bothered to calculate confidence intervals but I'd say there's a reasonable chance that Tesla and the other six are in fact outliers statistically speaking.

My point isn’t that tesla is among the best in reliability, just that the BS you read exaggerates issues. Tesla has the highest customer satisfaction of any auto brand. When you do need tesla service, the technicians come to fix it at your house, office, wherever you want.

But if high initial quality is the most important thing to you, by all means stick with Buick, dodge or Chevy.

Actually yes, it is to me and a lot of people. Most of us rate reliability pretty highly because we can't afford to have our cars in the shop. They're literally the lifeline between our homes, our jobs, our kid's schools, and emergencies. Your car payments are usually the second most expensive thing after home payments, whether rent or mortgage. Reliability can be the difference between making rent or other bills this month or not. It's the first thing that comes up in any conversation about cars, and word of mouth about reliability is a major influence on that huge financial decision.

But then again, most of us can't afford Teslas (or Buicks for that matter) so I guess those who have that kind of money to burn aren't too worried about those things.

 

[Uragan]

Your graph puts Tesla seventh from the bottom of that list, tied with Mitsubishi. They're #28 out of 34 (including Polestar).

Now, I haven't bothered to calculate confidence intervals but I'd say there's a reasonable chance that Tesla and the other six are in fact outliers statistically speaking.

My point isn’t that tesla is among the best in reliability, just that the BS you read exaggerates issues. Tesla has the highest customer satisfaction of any auto brand. When you do need tesla service, the technicians come to fix it at your house, office, wherever you want.

But if high initial quality is the most important thing to you, by all means stick with Buick, dodge or Chevy.

You're still being willfully obtuse. The OP was talking about Tesla cars, and you were trying to put words in their mouth. Again, you walk into Tesla threads and will bend over backwards to defend them, including gish galloping.