Not-so-permadeath: Blizzard revives Hardcore WoW characters killed by DDOS attacks

New policy comes as OnlyFangs streaming guild planned to quit over DDOS disruptions.

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[gommer]

DDOS attacks are difficult to conclusively solve. Final Fantasy 14 has been hit as well a few months back by some pretty nasty attacks. MMORPGs are a target.

 

[Dputiger]

This is the only appropriate way to handle the situation. Anything less incentivizes the griefers.

 

[zyxtomatic]

DDOS attacks are difficult to conclusively solve. Final Fantasy 14 has been hit as well a few months back by some pretty nasty attacks. MMORPGs are a target.

It's particularly an issue in hardcore modes like in WoW, where a DDOS (and subsequent player disconnections) result in the players' characters dying, and thus their characters getting deleted.

 

[DCRoss]

TIL: WoW has permanent death of a character.

No, today you learned that the specialty "Hardcore Classic" server for World of Warcraft, unlike the rest of World of Warcraft, has permanent death for characters as a unique challenge which is only available on that server.

The rest of the game works just like the games that you are used to. Unless you go out of your way to play on the "Hardcore" server then you will be able to die as many times as you like and always bounce back a few seconds later.

Also, if your hardcore character dies then you have the option to move the character to a non-hardcore realm and continue playing. You just can't bring them back to the hardcore server.

 

[Spazzles]

I don't livestream, but for hardcore couldn't you just put your stream on a 1-3 hr delay (or whatever is necessary to allow guild players to get to safe spaces before broadcast?) You can still get the "live" feel without the risk of anyone knowing exactly where you are in real time. TV Broadcasters have been putting "live" TV on a delay for editing out F*bombs for decades. It's not exactly the same as "true" live, but it also eliminates a lot of potential malicious behavior (DDOS, Swatting, etc...) And its still just a thrilling for the viewers since it's "live" for all the viewers. Seems like a reasonable safety measure when on hardcore.

While streamers could do this, there's a whole raft of reasons why it's just not gonna happen. First off, you'd have to coordinate this time delay with everyone involved, which is significantly more difficult than it sounds. Secondly, there's technical considerations, as it'd be a much more complicated streaming setup than just pressing the "go-live" button and would incur real costs, such as local storage space for the 3 hours of video you have to record for the delay. Third, streamers tend to interact with their chat; it's basically the only reason some people watch some large streamers, is to have the opportunity for their streamer to read something they wrote and respond to it.

And lastly, it wouldn't even work. If you're doing a 10 man raid with 10 popular streamers, someone is going to inadvertently leak when the raid is going to actually happen and it can be DDOS'd anyway.

 

[citizencoyote]

I absolutely get the appeal of hardcore games, and have played several myself. However, I'm picky about which ones I do play. Online-only games are a huge no-no for me, for exactly reasons like this that are out of the player's control. I can't imagine trying to play WoW hardcore, and it's even harder to picture an entire raid doing so. Kudos to them for having the time and energy to do that, but it's definitely not for me.

 

[Drum]

I don't livestream, but for hardcore couldn't you just put your stream on a 1-3 hr delay (or whatever is necessary to allow guild players to get to safe spaces before broadcast?) You can still get the "live" feel without the risk of anyone knowing exactly where you are in real time. TV Broadcasters have been putting "live" TV on a delay for editing out F*bombs for decades. It's not exactly the same as "true" live, but it also eliminates a lot of potential malicious behavior (DDOS, Swatting, etc...) And its still just a thrilling for the viewers since it's "live" for all the viewers. Seems like a reasonable safety measure when on hardcore.

I don’t watch hardcore wow, but i know in the other games i do watch streamers have said that interacting with chat is a huge benefit to their stream - it is more fun, and it brings more viewers which means more revenue. Its big enough to the point that some streamers would rather skip out on a tournaments that requires delays because they’d just make more money doing their regular stream. I’d assume that a similar desire would be at play here.

 

[Nelendo]

Hardcore mode.
First game I played that had such an option was original Diablo.
My first thought was "No one would be insane enough to actually use this, right?"
Once the internet was more developed and I actually got access it to, I learned that yes, there were some people that actually enjoy(?) playing on hardcore mode for the challenge and I guess the adrenaline rush?

At this point I acknowledge that there are people who want it and enjoy it. I can respect that. I don't understand how they can enjoy that, and I don't think I want to.

 

[MTSkibum]

I don't livestream, but for hardcore couldn't you just put your stream on a 1-3 hr delay (or whatever is necessary to allow guild players to get to safe spaces before broadcast?) You can still get the "live" feel without the risk of anyone knowing exactly where you are in real time. TV Broadcasters have been putting "live" TV on a delay for editing out F*bombs for decades. It's not exactly the same as "true" live, but it also eliminates a lot of potential malicious behavior (DDOS, Swatting, etc...) And its still just a thrilling for the viewers since it's "live" for all the viewers. Seems like a reasonable safety measure when on hardcore.

That wouldn't work because everyone knows when the major guilds are raiding the cutting edge content because they drop their buffs for everyone to get before they raid.

Plus anyone can do /who blackwing lair and then find out who is in their raiding.

I play wow hardcore.

 

[Fred Duck]

OnlyFangs? Sounds like a good name for an Elite: Dangerous webcomic.

Hardcore mode.
First game I played that had such an option was original Diablo.
My first thought was "No one would be insane enough to actually use this, right?"
Once the internet was more developed and I actually got access it to, I learned that yes, there were some people that actually enjoy(?) playing on hardcore mode for the challenge and I guess the adrenaline rush?

Roguelikes have had permadeath for ages. Maybe even forever.

 

[MTSkibum]

Hardcore mode.
First game I played that had such an option was original Diablo.
My first thought was "No one would be insane enough to actually use this, right?"
Once the internet was more developed and I actually got access it to, I learned that yes, there were some people that actually enjoy(?) playing on hardcore mode for the challenge and I guess the adrenaline rush?

At this point I acknowledge that there are people who want it and enjoy it. I can respect that. I don't understand how they can enjoy that, and I don't think I want to.

I thought I was done with WoW. I played TONS of vanilla 20 years ago and I am only back because of the hardcore aspect.

I am currently ~60 hours in at level 35, which is about 1/3 of the way through the game. The fact that i could be forced to start over at any time is the draw. In this regards it is similar to project zomboid.

1 messup = gameover.

 

[Spazzles]

Hardcore mode.
First game I played that had such an option was original Diablo.
My first thought was "No one would be insane enough to actually use this, right?"
Once the internet was more developed and I actually got access it to, I learned that yes, there were some people that actually enjoy(?) playing on hardcore mode for the challenge and I guess the adrenaline rush?

At this point I acknowledge that there are people who want it and enjoy it. I can respect that. I don't understand how they can enjoy that, and I don't think I want to.

In a lot of ways it's more about demonstration of skill than adrenaline rush.

When WoW first introduced Hardcore I decided to see how far I could make it with a hardcore character, as a lark, as I'd played quite a bit of WoW back in the day and was typically a very careful player. I actually managed to get a character to level 44 before my video driver crashed in the middle of a fight (thanks AMD!), and by the time I could get back in to the game my hardcore character was dead.

And I thought to myself: "Well, I made it to level 44 without much trouble, and the reason I died was because of an ill-timed technical error. I think I've proved, to myself at least, that I'm skilled enough to survive the standard difficulty curve, or at least that I'm sufficiently cautious to consistently avoid getting in over my head. I have absolute confidence that without the technical issue, I would have made it to level 60 in time."

And I was also sufficiently pissed off that I cancelled my WoW subscription for a year.

 

[nehinks]

TIL: WoW has permanent death of a character.

I'm a bit boggled by that. I don't do WoW, and rezzing in the MMO I play is pretty simple. It can be done by waypoint, any other player who bothers to get you up, a "revive orb" that gets you up at half health with some skill penalties, or just logging out and back in (in which case you arrive at a way point closest to your former demise).

The way I see it, the whole point to a video game is to play. Based on anecdotal evidence, there's no indication "play" happens after permadeath - at least not for a character that you've put a few (or a few thousand) hours into. One of mine has 2800+ hours. Even my least often used characters typically have a few hundred hours. And none of that time starts until after the character is named and enters the arena, so character creation isn't part of the timing.

That's a lot of time and effort for a character. And killing them off?

Definitely not my thing.

I mean, if you don't spend days just leveling and tons of gold equipping and all that, it's basically a throw-away character anyhow. But assuming you put a lot more effort into the character's development and abilities than air-dropping them in naked with a hearty pat on the back and an encouraging thumbs up, I'd have to wonder what kind of sadist, (or masochist) enjoys making them just to end up killing them off.

Can you imagine doing Mount Balrior with zero deaths in a PUG? Shudder

 

[Edgar Allan Esquire]

OnlyFangs? Sounds like a good name for an Elite: Dangerous webcomic.


Roguelikes have had permadeath for ages. Maybe even forever.

And most pen and papers. That character sheet rip (in both senses) was always a blow.

 

[zyxtomatic]

Plus anyone can do /who blackwing lair and then find out who is in their raiding.

This is a great point. There's no way to actually hide where you are in WoW. Anyone at any time could do just as you say (use the /who command) to see where popular streamers' characters are and deduce that they are doing a raid if they see a group of streamers' characters all in a raid dungeon.

 

[srt8driver]

That wouldn't work because everyone knows when the major guilds are raiding the cutting edge content because they drop their buffs for everyone to get before they raid.

Plus anyone can do /who blackwing lair and then find out who is in their raiding.

I play wow hardcore.

I forgot about the /who command... I played WoW at launch through WoTLK but haven't played in years. That makes total sense. TIL something!

 

[Christarp]

This is a fantastic response imo, I’ve been following onlyfangs for quite a while and they’ve been producing some of the best content out there for a while now. It’s in both blizzards and the players best interest that when major service disruptions like this occur they resolve it.

 

[Boskone]

Hardcore was never about fairness, it was about finality. The whole appeal lies in its brutal indifference: one mistake, one flicker of lag, one errant click, and your character is gone, like smoke in the wind. That certainty—unforgiving, absolute—is what gave it meaning. It wasn’t just a game mode; it was a contract. To revoke that for anyone, even in extraordinary circumstances, is to admit that consequences are now negotiable. And once death has exceptions, it’s no longer death. It’s theater.

Hardcore is a game mode, not a whole world mode.

Yes, if you sneeze, the city trenches through your cable, or--I dunno--you have a mild seizure, your toon dies and that's that. Gamers accept that there are risks outside of the game.

Someone hiring botnet time is way outside of those risks. Not rolling back deaths would essentially allow the malefsctors to kill off the entire game mode, because basically no-one is going to continually replay the same content just because the servers keep being DDoSed.

 

[Tyralion]

Hardcore was never about fairness, it was about finality. The whole appeal lies in its brutal indifference: one mistake, one flicker of lag, one errant click, and your character is gone, like smoke in the wind. That certainty—unforgiving, absolute—is what gave it meaning. It wasn’t just a game mode; it was a contract. To revoke that for anyone, even in extraordinary circumstances, is to admit that consequences are now negotiable. And once death has exceptions, it’s no longer death. It’s theater.

I totally agree with you up to ”what gave it meaning.” I totally disagree with you about the rest. It’s just a game, man.

 

[Fred Duck]

And most pen and papers. That character sheet rip (in both senses) was always a blow.

The very last time I played actual D&D, the DM was quite a [unprintable expletive]. Even though he knew I was the youngest player and he knew I was rather inexperienced and he knew I spent an hour making my character (including portrait), he still killed me in the first hit in our first encounter and he still ripped my CS in two.

It was particularly traumatic because I was five.

Just between you and me, that was also the last time I joined a game where my brother was DM/GM.

 

[tilde nirvana]

Reminds me of the EVE online story where someone physically cut the electricity to a rival guild player’s home so he couldn’t log to defend a massive attack. Now THAT is hardcore (criminality).

 

[Uncivil Servant]

OnlyFangs? Sounds like a good name for an Elite: Dangerous webcomic.

I would have guessed vampire fetish website, and I'm kinda surprised it hasn't been trademarked for that yet...

 

[Uncivil Servant]

Hardcore was never about fairness, it was about finality. The whole appeal lies in its brutal indifference: one mistake, one flicker of lag, one errant click, and your character is gone, like smoke in the wind. That certainty—unforgiving, absolute—is what gave it meaning. It wasn’t just a game mode; it was a contract. To revoke that for anyone, even in extraordinary circumstances, is to admit that consequences are now negotiable. And once death has exceptions, it’s no longer death. It’s theater.

This has to be some of the best satire of angsty teenage video gamers I've read in a very long time.

It's satire, right?

 

[Arstotzka]

I'm totally unsurprised. Log4J was discovered because of Minecraft gamers wrecking other people's servers.

I don't understand griefing. It's like shitting on someone's doorstep. The pseudo-anonymity of the internet seems to encourage borderline psychopathic behavior particularly in gaming... why? Because other people are better? Is it an online version of tall poppy syndrome?

 

[The Lurker Beneath]

OnlyFangs? Sounds like a good name for an Elite: Dangerous webcomic.


Roguelikes have had permadeath for ages. Maybe even forever.

Since Rogue. I think that counts as forever!

Mind you, a run in Rogue is at most a few hours long, shorter if you die. I find permadeath easy to justify as an option in short games; in longer ones, not so much.

 

[eduardopozo56]

I don't livestream, but for hardcore couldn't you just put your stream on a 1-3 hr delay (or whatever is necessary to allow guild players to get to safe spaces before broadcast?) You can still get the "live" feel without the risk of anyone knowing exactly where you are in real time. TV Broadcasters have been putting "live" TV on a delay for editing out F*bombs for decades. It's not exactly the same as "true" live, but it also eliminates a lot of potential malicious behavior (DDOS, Swatting, etc...) And its still just a thrilling for the viewers since it's "live" for all the viewers. Seems like a reasonable safety measure when on hardcore.

That would be.. removing the "stream" from the "streaming" and just watching a video that is released instantly after an event. Most of the appeal from a streamer (maybe 90%+) is the live interaction with people, remove that and you are watching a youtube video with a guy speaking by himself.

 

[Zilveari]

The only reason I played D2 LoD on hardcore mode was because I didn't need to care about lag spikes, ping issues, etc. No way in hell I'd do it in an MMO, especially with how often WoW seems to get massive DDOS attacks, or if my own internet took a shit at the worst possible time.

 

[TekaroBB]

Since Rogue. I think that counts as forever!

Mind you, a run in Rogue is at most a few hours long, shorter if you die. I find permadeath easy to justify as an option in short games; in longer ones, not so much.

Yes, but I also the whole point of something like Rogue is that you are intended to die most of the time and occasionally get a win. Dying is part of the fun.

Whereas the type of person who finds hardcore runs in long games know those games inside and out. At that point it's less likely that you are going to die over and over and more you know the game so well that the threat of a potential character ruining death is the only way to keep it exciting.

 

[Hacker Uno]

Okay, I'm not a gamer. So, can someone please explain to me what is to be gained by DDoSing a game? I don't see any financial incentive (I'm probably missing something!). So, what's to be gained by DDoSing a game? I don't get it.

 

[GenocideOwl]

Reminds me of the EVE online story where someone physically cut the electricity to a rival guild player’s home so he couldn’t log to defend a massive attack. Now THAT is hardcore (criminality).

EVE Online always has the most deranged stories

 

[salbee17]

But the appeal of disrupting specific scheduled streams will remain until Blizzard can find some way to protect its servers more effectively.

What exactly is the appeal?

 

[GenocideOwl]

Okay, I'm not a gamer. So, can someone please explain to me what is to be gained by DDoSing a game? I don't see any financial incentive (I'm probably missing something!). So, what's to be gained by DDoSing a game? I don't get it.

"Some people just want to watch the world burn"