Infants can form memories starting at 1, but they don’t last until later
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This actually makes a lot of sense, I have a very strong eidetic memory, but it does start before I was 1 year old, and I did start talking at around 9 months, so this could explain that.
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fMRI was used, and is quite a bit different from MRI.
MRI has pretty good detail/resolution. Is used for examining physiological structures of human body, especially for brain.
fMRI can see functional 'hotspots' of brain activity, where and what regions oxygen is used more than the baseline. So strap a baby in, get baseline, show pictures, memory regions show more activity vs. baseline or XYZ (other regions would show activity too, like occipital lobe).
fMRI has terrible resolution though (compared to MRI). So can put a point on a region, but not too fine a point.
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I have a very distinct memory of being held up over a crib, looking at a small baby, being told this was my new sister. My sister was born when I was about 20 months old. A very distinct detail of this memory was an aspiration bulb lying in the crib. I remembered this detail long before I ever had seen an aspiration bulb in any other context, or knew what it was for.
Another, less pleasant memory, involves me netting a goldfish out of our family aquarium, pulling a large lava rock out of the aquarium, placing the fish on top of it, and smashing the goldfish with another rock. I remember seeing a bloody goldfish. I didn’t speak of this for many years, but when I finally did, my mother told me that they were extremely upset by this incident, and were half-worried that I might turn out to be some kind of serial killer or something. She said that they reacted very strongly. I don’t remember anything about the incident except that I had to climb up on an upturned bucket to reach the tank. I have a vague memory that I wanted to see what would happen. I was just about two years old at the time.
Both of these incidents occurred at around two years of age, and likely had a very strong emotional impact. Of course, it’s possible that these were confabulated based on stories I was told, but considering the fact that my parents didn’t talk about them to me until I brought them up years later, I think it’s more likely than not that they were real memories.
I was also one of those kids that was vocally articulate by age one, and was reading by age 2, so I tend to think that facility with language is one of the things that contributes to persistence of memory.
Another, less pleasant memory, involves me netting a goldfish out of our family aquarium, pulling a large lava rock out of the aquarium, placing the fish on top of it, and smashing the goldfish with another rock. I remember seeing a bloody goldfish. I didn’t speak of this for many years, but when I finally did, my mother told me that they were extremely upset by this incident, and were half-worried that I might turn out to be some kind of serial killer or something. She said that they reacted very strongly. I don’t remember anything about the incident except that I had to climb up on an upturned bucket to reach the tank. I have a vague memory that I wanted to see what would happen. I was just about two years old at the time.
Both of these incidents occurred at around two years of age, and likely had a very strong emotional impact. Of course, it’s possible that these were confabulated based on stories I was told, but considering the fact that my parents didn’t talk about them to me until I brought them up years later, I think it’s more likely than not that they were real memories.
I was also one of those kids that was vocally articulate by age one, and was reading by age 2, so I tend to think that facility with language is one of the things that contributes to persistence of memory.
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I'll go with the idea that having word for things, even if made up noises, helps the more mature indexing system. I was born on a US Army Air Field a little before V-E day. The base was used for training pilots and crews of heavy bombers. My parents were in the Army and lived on base. That means from the womb out to 14 months when my father was discharged, I was constantly exposed to the roar of big radial piston engines, four at a time,
In my baby book, my mother wrote about our "puddle jumper" flight from the base to my father's home state. While the DC-3's engines were running, I was a happy kid. When they shut down at an intermediate stop, not so much. I have no memory of any of that, but a big radial engine on the ground or in the air has always gotten me to stop whatever I'm doing to look and listen. I did not see the baby book until cleaning out my parents' home when I was in my mid-40s.
Meanwhile, I became a pilot. I have several thousand hours of piston time, including a DC-3 type rating, but zero turbine time.
The memory of those engines is deep inside somewhere as a strong impression, starting long before I had words.
In my baby book, my mother wrote about our "puddle jumper" flight from the base to my father's home state. While the DC-3's engines were running, I was a happy kid. When they shut down at an intermediate stop, not so much. I have no memory of any of that, but a big radial engine on the ground or in the air has always gotten me to stop whatever I'm doing to look and listen. I did not see the baby book until cleaning out my parents' home when I was in my mid-40s.
Meanwhile, I became a pilot. I have several thousand hours of piston time, including a DC-3 type rating, but zero turbine time.
The memory of those engines is deep inside somewhere as a strong impression, starting long before I had words.
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I don't think the peekaboo game is as traumatic as you suspect. Babies seem to enjoy it, based on how much they laugh.
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I understand that being an infant is an almost psychedelic level of constant sensory overload. The brain is drinking from the firehose. In light of that, it makes sense that it might not be useful to permanently remember every bit of misleading conditioning. In this case, the mice are forgetting something that happened for a short time while they were learning how to perceive the world.
I can see how that kind of amnesia is pretty functional. Infants are making all kinds of connections, and many of those aren't necessarily going to help them thrive. Forgetting the patterns that don't continue past that sensory overload phase could be part of how we filter out the wrong lessons.
I can see how that kind of amnesia is pretty functional. Infants are making all kinds of connections, and many of those aren't necessarily going to help them thrive. Forgetting the patterns that don't continue past that sensory overload phase could be part of how we filter out the wrong lessons.
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I must be an exception because I remember a few things from before I was 1, even a pair when I was merely months old. They are mainly fuzzy images and sensations, probably because then I lacked enough knowledge of the world.
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A few guesses/theories come to mind:
Our neural nets is of limited capacity so perhaps some/most of those memories get overwritten. A question: have 5 year olds already forgotten year 3 memories or does it take a while for those pre-4yo memories to be lost? (Just read that it is gradual and that neurogenesis is rapid at that age making retrieval difficult.)
Someone mentioned our memories being tied to language or at least language helps us retrieve and organize them. I think this is true but kids do learn to talk way before 4 years old.
I suspect that the trauma and confusion before age 4 was useful to forget to get onto better things is a major factor. I also remember that in my teenage years having a lot more confidence and assurance of my abilities than I do now but in reality my abilities weren't great in my teenage years and my abilities now are greater. But annoyingly there is so much less confidence. My point is that there is different phases to our lives and different needs to survive.
Our neural nets is of limited capacity so perhaps some/most of those memories get overwritten. A question: have 5 year olds already forgotten year 3 memories or does it take a while for those pre-4yo memories to be lost? (Just read that it is gradual and that neurogenesis is rapid at that age making retrieval difficult.)
Someone mentioned our memories being tied to language or at least language helps us retrieve and organize them. I think this is true but kids do learn to talk way before 4 years old.
I suspect that the trauma and confusion before age 4 was useful to forget to get onto better things is a major factor. I also remember that in my teenage years having a lot more confidence and assurance of my abilities than I do now but in reality my abilities weren't great in my teenage years and my abilities now are greater. But annoyingly there is so much less confidence. My point is that there is different phases to our lives and different needs to survive.
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I'm jealous. I can't remember much from before I was 40.
That said, I do have a memory from when I was about 3 when my parents were buying our new 1966 Beetle. I remember the salesman showing them how to put it in reverse.
That said, I do have a memory from when I was about 3 when my parents were buying our new 1966 Beetle. I remember the salesman showing them how to put it in reverse.
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I am jealous of you. There are some memories from before 30 plenty of us would probably rather not remember at all ;-)
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My earliest memory was my mother holding me on a hill above a beach. I was about 1 year old.
I have pretty strong memories starting from about 18 months old on.
Most memories, sadly, I wish I could forget from my childhood.
I have pretty strong memories starting from about 18 months old on.
Most memories, sadly, I wish I could forget from my childhood.
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It might actually hinder our progress to have active memory of it, almost like the brain truly wakes up at that age when we’ve laid a foundation.
It might just make sense that if we held onto that it would be
Seems like that would het in the way of a more analytical state of being
Similarly blind mice that cannot walk etc, yeah why would they remember that?
It might just make sense that if we held onto that it would be
- very weird different limb sizes, so incorrect balance etc that gets in the way
- poor understanding of words
- just a ball of emotions all the time
Seems like that would het in the way of a more analytical state of being
Similarly blind mice that cannot walk etc, yeah why would they remember that?
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It's fantastic to know that careful research and development could unlock our memories of being circumcised and pooping our pants.
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This is really weird because I thought this was a solved issue!
I thought it was due to synaptic pruning. Around age 5, the human brain goes through a process of cutting off many synapses that formed up to that point.
This is necessary because if you see how neurons grow, it is less controlled and more like a tentacled beast reaching out to latch onto anything nearby. So you have 86 billion neurons reaching out to connect to nearby neurons, making all kind of connections, not all of them will be good.
Then comes the great pruning starting around age 5. This too won't be surgical and perfect, sometimes too few connections will be severed and you end up with epilepsy where the additional connections cause a cascade of signals, and too many would result in memory loss.
I thought that the reason why people have such wildly different experiences with how many memories they keep from younger than age 5 was due to this process. Some people have less synapses pruned and keep some of their baby memories, others don't, but generally everyone will have levels of memory loss due to the pruning.
Additionally, the mechanism for recording memories, the process that learns what to save and what to discard is also learning. Initially all memory recording will be driven by internal processes. What causes pain, what causes happiness, prediction loops. This probably also contributes to what ends up getting saved from infancy.
But maybe I'm totally off base.
I thought it was due to synaptic pruning. Around age 5, the human brain goes through a process of cutting off many synapses that formed up to that point.
This is necessary because if you see how neurons grow, it is less controlled and more like a tentacled beast reaching out to latch onto anything nearby. So you have 86 billion neurons reaching out to connect to nearby neurons, making all kind of connections, not all of them will be good.
Then comes the great pruning starting around age 5. This too won't be surgical and perfect, sometimes too few connections will be severed and you end up with epilepsy where the additional connections cause a cascade of signals, and too many would result in memory loss.
I thought that the reason why people have such wildly different experiences with how many memories they keep from younger than age 5 was due to this process. Some people have less synapses pruned and keep some of their baby memories, others don't, but generally everyone will have levels of memory loss due to the pruning.
Additionally, the mechanism for recording memories, the process that learns what to save and what to discard is also learning. Initially all memory recording will be driven by internal processes. What causes pain, what causes happiness, prediction loops. This probably also contributes to what ends up getting saved from infancy.
But maybe I'm totally off base.
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This reminds me of a story in an early Mary Poppins book. It’s about two toddlers, who can understand the language of birds and trees - all toddlers can. But the skill goes away as they grow older.
I googled for the passage from the book:
“We understand everything,” said John. “Wind and trees and stars and birds and the language of the sun. Why, we can even hear the grass growing.”
“But they won’t always understand, will they?” said the Starling.
“No,” said Mary Poppins, “they’ll forget, just as all the others have. It’s the same with them all. Even the cleverest forget. They’ll forget because they’re growing older. And when they’ve forgotten, they’ll be like everyone else. No use to themselves or to anyone else.”
I googled for the passage from the book:
“We understand everything,” said John. “Wind and trees and stars and birds and the language of the sun. Why, we can even hear the grass growing.”
“But they won’t always understand, will they?” said the Starling.
“No,” said Mary Poppins, “they’ll forget, just as all the others have. It’s the same with them all. Even the cleverest forget. They’ll forget because they’re growing older. And when they’ve forgotten, they’ll be like everyone else. No use to themselves or to anyone else.”
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That’s one hypothesis I’ve heard but knowing it also happens in other mammals makes me wonder if there’s another reason
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Synaptic pruning is a thing but this seems a little off. Wouldn’t that mean people with epilepsy have more infant memories?
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I remember learning the word "no". It felt incredibly empowering because all of a sudden I could express opinions. I ran around the whole morning saying no no no no no just because I was so stoked to be able to express myself.
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huh, that's a very interesting consequence of the hypothesis. Has it ever been tested?
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I was thinking something similar and that this seems like a perfect case for an interdisciplinary project.
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This is a really cool topic and I know we get a lot from testing on mice and other animals, but I still couldn't help wondering why they couldn't choose a positive association, seems a bit unnecessarily cruel.
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Amygdala-mediated memories are longer lasting than those that come through the hippocampus. The amygdala is involved in highly emotional situations, which might account for people remembering infant traumas. I recall a memory of me running to my mother in the dark, saying "Mommy, mommy, baby crying." My sister was one and a quarter years younger so I had to have been around three or so years old.
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Very young children have trouble telling truth from fiction. Their memories of stories they've heard often get mixed in with events they have experienced.
Infantile amnesia conveniently throws away memories from that period. The fact that the two aspects of brain development happen at about the same time could be a lucky coincidence, or there may be evolutionary pressure to synchronize them.
Infantile amnesia conveniently throws away memories from that period. The fact that the two aspects of brain development happen at about the same time could be a lucky coincidence, or there may be evolutionary pressure to synchronize them.
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One of my unpleasant memories that I still remember to this day was cutting an electrical cord with a pair of nail clippers when I was around three or so, and I manged to both shock and burn myself while also putting a nice back mark on the floor, which is still there to this day.
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Makes you wonder if infancy is just an extended traumatic nightmare we need to forget to move forward from. That would explain all the crying.
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It is interesting reading comments from people who have memories from as early as 1 year old. My case is kind of interesting too. While my earliest memories might be from around three years of age, the truth is I don’t know for sure if that is a memory, or something I think I remember but was told to me by someone else.
What I do know for certain is that there are events that have happened when I was 6 years old and older, and I have absolutely no recollection of whatsoever. It’s funny cause people will be like “oh do you remember when this and that happened“, and all I’m doing is drawing blanks.
What I do know for certain is that there are events that have happened when I was 6 years old and older, and I have absolutely no recollection of whatsoever. It’s funny cause people will be like “oh do you remember when this and that happened“, and all I’m doing is drawing blanks.
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"You hold the answer deep within your own mind. Consciously you’ve forgotten it, that’s the way the human mind works. Whenever something is too unpleasant and too shameful for us to entertain we reject it, we erase it from our memory. But the imprint is always there, nothing is ever really forgotten."
Quotation from the 1958's horror film "My World Dies Screaming/Terror in the Haunted House" used in the song "Understanding" by Evanescence.
Quotation from the 1958's horror film "My World Dies Screaming/Terror in the Haunted House" used in the song "Understanding" by Evanescence.
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My daughter who just turned four clearly remembers events from one and two years ago. It will be fascinating to see how much she retains as she grows older.
Personally I don't think that there's some hard cut-off at the age of four. I think that older memories simply fade away and we only retain those that had a strong emotional connection. I remember moving out of our house at 13 months and a smoking oven from when I was 18 months. Most people I've discussed this with have similar recall.
I remember more from after I was four but it's not as if I remember vividly single every day...
Personally I don't think that there's some hard cut-off at the age of four. I think that older memories simply fade away and we only retain those that had a strong emotional connection. I remember moving out of our house at 13 months and a smoking oven from when I was 18 months. Most people I've discussed this with have similar recall.
I remember more from after I was four but it's not as if I remember vividly single every day...
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My earliest trustable memories are from around 3 years old. They are confirmed either by family testimonies or by photographs. Some are traumatic, others are not. And some events told by my mom that could be traumatic I do not remember at all.
Yet another ones have no external confirmation, but I trust them nonetheless because I remember remembering them since at least school age, when they were still relatively fresh.
People born this century will probably have more recollections of their first years simply by the tons of photos and videos taken by their parents and relatives, or even themselves, and stored in smartphones, social networks and cloud storage services. They just need to frequently rewatch these records while they grow up.
Yet another ones have no external confirmation, but I trust them nonetheless because I remember remembering them since at least school age, when they were still relatively fresh.
People born this century will probably have more recollections of their first years simply by the tons of photos and videos taken by their parents and relatives, or even themselves, and stored in smartphones, social networks and cloud storage services. They just need to frequently rewatch these records while they grow up.
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Try asking her, with some frequency, "Do you remember this or that?", while she grows up. The key to remembering and recollecting something, in any age, is to exercise in doing it, so that the brain learns that specific information needs to be maintained always accessible.
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As a control, you could ask her if she remembers something that didn't happen. Maybe at the end she will remember that just as well!
Then again, conducting psychological experiments on one's children verges on mad scientist territory, so OP may not wish to...
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