🦄 The Casual 2024 Presidential Election

Status
Not open for further replies.

Technarch

Ars Legatus Legionis
12,370
Subscriptor
Probably took that silly 80's series V a bit too seriously.

I kind of miss the late-twentieth-century brand of harmless conspiracy theory, where Majestic-12 was busily covering up the evidence of visitations by the warring Lizard people and Grays. Conspiracy theories about child sex trafficking in the pizzeria basement are no fun at all.
 
Similarly, the old Republicans were the party of a strong military. How does that jibe with isolationism?
Republicans have ran back and forth between these two extremes before. I remember George W Bush originally ran on an isolationist platform, with "No foreign entanglements" and "No nation-building" as the catchphrases. And we all know how that turned out. They're against foreign entanglements and nation-building when Democrats do them, but when they get handed the flimsiest pretext to knock over Iraq, they jump at the chance. Sort of like they're against government being involved in your personal life until they very much are.
 
He's coasting on some things the GOP traditionally had the upper hand on, despite not actually having the traditional GOP views. For example, the independence of the fed is basically sacrosanct, but Trump wanted to meddle in his last term and still wants to meddle today. I'm not sure how to counter that, though.
Hm, countering Trump fiscal idiocy... Let's try one on.

----

"Do you want your social security check to be paid in cryptocurrency instead of dollars?

Because that sounds like how Donald Trump wants to pay Seniors their Social Security.

Donald Trump said he wants to pay off all government bonds with a brand new, untested cryptocurrency kind of like Bitcoin. Including the bonds which are the Social Security Trust Fund.

Of course, you bank only accepts deposits in dollars. Your grocery store only takes dollars. You can only use dollars to pay your electric bill.

Don't risk your social security, your house and your life on a wild crypto scheme. Vote Harris-Walz."

Then a second version focused on Project 2025 planning to cut Social Security benefits and how JD Vance is completely in support of it. Are you SURE that Trump will live out his term? Do you trust JD?
 
IIRC the meeting was about fuel efficiency standards which is why Musk wasn't invited.
No, it was an actual EV Summit at the White House. GM, Ford and Stellantis were all invited, despite making a paltry number of EVs in the USA compared to Tesla.

For @poochyena - Funding a brand new car company in the USA has been an extremely unlikely way to make money for many decades.

There's plenty of legitimate complaints against Musk, including ones more relevant to this thread. Such as his radical right-wing extremism and trying to get Trump elected both by his slanted control of Twitter content and by direct donations.
 

poochyena

Ars Scholae Palatinae
3,268
Subscriptor++
For @poochyena - Funding a brand new car company in the USA has been an extremely unlikely way to make money for many decades.
yet, its also been a very common way to try. There have been dozens of EV startups. Funding startups that are unlikely to succeed is rich people's favorite pastime. Its the rich person's equivalent of buying a lottery ticket.
He likes EVs because they are fast and powerful, not because they are saving the environment.
 

Macam

Ars Scholae Palatinae
1,131
In the case of the USA, many already view Canada as the 51st state, and that spiffy “wall” on the southern border rules out Mexico. That kind of limits options, doesn’t it?

Pretty sure in terms of US discourse, Israel is the 51st state just in terms of how often it comes up in national discourse/the resources we allocate to it/the reverence in which certain political segments speak of it, Puerto Rico is a Micronesian “third world” country full of impoverished Spanish speakers for some reason, and Canada is an old American territory that we kind of forget exists except when we’re threatened by their relatively somewhat more reasonable medical costs.
 

Wheels Of Confusion

Ars Legatus Legionis
70,843
Subscriptor
In the case of the USA, many already view Canada as the 51st state, and that spiffy “wall” on the southern border rules out Mexico. That kind of limits options, doesn’t it?
"We shall not cease until we have annexed Puerto Rico! They shall be the fifty-first jewel in our crown of conquest!"
 
"We shall not cease until we have annexed Puerto Rico! They shall be the fifty-first jewel in our crown of conquest!"
Just to put in perspective, if it weren’t for all the brown people, we probably would have tried to woo Cuba as a state after 1898 (end of the Spanish-American War). The Cubans were fighting for independence, but if we’d wooed them like we’d wooed the Texans, why wouldn’t they have wanted to be an equal among the U.S. states? But we did things like exclude Cubans from the Paris peace talks, so they immediately didn’t feel like any kind of freedom or equality emanating from their relationship with the U.S. And nothing we did down there after 1898 would have changed that perception, IIUC.

Certainly would have saved a bunch of trouble a generation-or-so later.
 
  • Like
Reactions: linnen
New set of Altas polls. Its a high quality pollster showing a very close race, with Harris losing most of the battleground states by a few points. Other polls show Harris doing better in some of these states like PA, but atlas is a good pollster so its worth paying attention to.
It makes me a little suspicious to see Harris trailing in WI and MI; I think she is relatively safe in those two states.
 

Tijger

Ars Legatus Legionis
12,312
Subscriptor++
MI has a rather large Arab Muslim population. If they all vote against Harris as a bloc, I think it will be tough for Harris to win there.

Because Trump is pro-muslims or pro-Palestine? I can see that demographic not voting for Harris but Trump is actually far worse for them.
 

Lt_Storm

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
17,971
Subscriptor++
I don't know what you want me to say. It wasn't. Either words have meaning or they don't. Just saying it doesn't make it true.

I'd accept an argument that post January 6th things changed (and that we should be very worried about a second term), but that wasn't his first term, that was after he lost.

No Aurich, this does not work. Donald Trump was the same man on January 7th as he was on January 5th or November 8th, 2016 for that matter. Nothing about who Donald Trump was changed on January 6th. If January 6th revealed him to be a fascist then that is because he was always a fascist and you hadn't noticed yet. The only thing that January 6th changed was us: it clarified a pre-existing truth.

Though, you are right about one thing here, words do have meaning. If January 7th merely revealed Trump's fascism, then the question is: how could we have noticed this in 2016? The problem, I would argue, is that very few people actually know the meaning of the word 'fascism'. They mistake the trappings for the dish. Because of this, when a political candidate arises who is a fascist, they don't see it until the goose stepping and attempted coups begin. So perhaps we should talk about the meat and potatoes of what fascism is.

Fascism, lower case, is a typically-nationalist political cult focused on the restoration of the mythic golden age of the elect which, supposedly, ended through betrayal and insufficient purity but, in actuality, never existed, by a strong leader through will to power. The story reads "not so long ago, Our People enjoyed a golden age, the leadership was skilled and everyone knew their place. The the establishment became impure, lost touch with Our People, and betrayed us: favoring outsiders over Our People and forgetting the privileges Our People earned by building this great age. Thanks to this ongoing betrayal, our society is now crumbling. In order to fix this, we need a strong, primal, manly leader who will restore purity and return Our People to their rightful place in society."

In short fascism is any "make X great again" though methods which focus on cultural and racial purity, will to power, and a strongman savior. It is the shoe that fits what little political ideology Donald Trump actually holds.

Between Jan 6, and Project 2025, fascism isn't even inaccurate. Back away, and you're going to let them drag nearly all government services off into the "communism" definition they invented. You yourself have acknowledged in this thread how much they've moved it on the immigration issues.

Another parallel that fits well. After all, Mein Kampf spends quite some ink objecting to Marxism and communism along essentially similar though more openly racist lines.

I think the endless fascination with "fascist" vs "not fascist" is because it's hard to pin Trump down. And that is because, at his core, Trump isn't a fascist. As the joke goes, he's a sparkling authoritarian.

Please hear me out.

I claim that what Trump really believes in, in his heart of hearts, is Trumpism: doing whatever's good for Trump, as defined by Trump, at any moment in time. This is why he brags about ending Roe v Wade when among evangelicals and right-wing men, but claims to have 'returned it to the states' when the audience is women or a debate with Harris; it's whatever gets him the most approval from whoever's in front of him. This is also why he did some non-fascist things in his term as President, including some genuinely good ones like criminal justice reform (definitely not a fascist thing to do!) and funding COVID vaccine development.

But this is, of course, what attracts him to staying in power at all costs: it's good for Trump, and his grifting, and his getting out of legal troubles. So he does VERY fascist things like try to overthrow the government.

Trump fits the same archetype that Aaron Burr fits in Hamilton: he has no ideals, no principles, and just wants to be the center of the world.

Many of the things he does are fascist or fascist-adjacent; Muslim bans, wanting to deport people left and right, etc. And the actual fascists and Nazis love him for it. In this sense, the question of what motivates him is kind of irrelevant. He quacks like a fascist and goose-steps like a fascist. He never met a show of force or a boot-licker he didn't like. So judging from his actions, sure, call him a fascist or a wannabe: he behaves like one in most of the important ways.

But I doubt he could define fascist or articulate what he believes in in such a way as to satisfy any reasonable definition. So IS he a fascist? Yes and no. And we're just going to have to live with that.

Just because someone can't define something doesn't mean that that they can't believe in it. Indeed, when it is something awful, being unable to define it makes it much more likely that one holds it quite dear.

As for the idea that, because Trump holds no principles outside of self interest, he cannot be fascist, this presumes much false about fascism, specifically, that fascism requires holding the kind of principle Trump does not. But, of course, a lack of general principle or ideal outside of a belief in the superiority of the elect, the will to power, and the necessity of purity and devotion is one of the typical elements of fascism. And, if I were to describe the ideological beliefs which Trump does hold those would be them. The man is a racist, a would be authoritarian, and thoroughly believes in racial purity.

So, the answer is yes. Both his general lack of principle and what little principle he does actually hold are all the evidence of fascism. Trumpism is a kind of fascism.
 
Because Trump is pro-muslims or pro-Palestine? I can see that demographic not voting for Harris but Trump is actually far worse for them.
I think the thought process is:

Why should we even bother since you're not going to advocate for anything we care about.0 The "coalition" primaried some of our biggest congressional supporters and the Democratic leadership did nothing. So, we're no longer at the table and you don't want us there.

So how do they get your attention? By forming a large enough voting block to make you lose. See Joe Manchin or how whole heartedly the Republicans embraced the Tea Party.

Anyways, I do see where they are coming from in that their votes are being taken for granted, especially if the other side is so much worse. As for the Democratic leadership, they did the calculus that pissing off the pro-israel lobby would be worse than alienating the pro-palestine lobby. So, we have to take those lumps from that decision.

The real question is: is the Democratic leadership right in ignoring this voting block?
 
Because Trump is pro-muslims or pro-Palestine? I can see that demographic not voting for Harris but Trump is actually far worse for them.
Yeah. The guy who moved the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem is somehow goood for Palestinians? The only thing that can be said that’s positive about Trump and Palestinians is that he happened to not be the president when Oct. 7 and its fallout occurred.
 
They don't care, they want to punish Democrats, flex their power.
It’s like the Hostess employees voting down the contract. Then the company goes out of business and you’ve got nothing. And they all say “look at all our power.” Yup. The power to screw yourself even worse than the other guy. Way to go!
 
When did it become in politics that you have to give people all exactly what they want or they will go mutually-assured destruction on you? What happened to being the better option?

Has this country really become so entitled that you vote for the person potentially bringing down democracy entirely, rather than the one who is better for your interests, just because the better one hasn’t given you everything you want?

And people cheer this on as though it actually makes any sense?

EDIT: And does no one realize that the response to punishing someone for not giving you everything you want is likely giving you nothing that you want?
 
When did it become in politics that you have to give people all exactly what they want or they will go mutually-assured destruction on you? What happened to being the better option?

Has this country really become so entitled that you vote for the person potentially bringing down democracy entirely, rather than the one who is better for your interests, just because the better one hasn’t given you everything you want?

And people cheer this on as though it actually makes any sense?
Single issue voters.

The pro-life movement started around 1973 (Roe v. Wade).

So, it's been around for decades.

Also, please don't confuse understanding and cheering.
 
  • Like
Reactions: parejkoj

Shavano

Ars Legatus Legionis
63,783
Subscriptor
I think the thought process is:

Why should we even bother since you're not going to advocate for anything we care about.0 The "coalition" primaried some of our biggest congressional supporters and the Democratic leadership did nothing. So, we're no longer at the table and you don't want us there.

So how do they get your attention? By forming a large enough voting block to make you lose. See Joe Manchin or how whole heartedly the Republicans embraced the Tea Party.

Anyways, I do see where they are coming from in that their votes are being taken for granted, especially if the other side is so much worse. As for the Democratic leadership, they did the calculus that pissing off the pro-israel lobby would be worse than alienating the pro-palestine lobby. So, we have to take those lumps from that decision.

The real question is: is the Democratic leadership right in ignoring this voting block?
I'm not sure ignoring is the right word for what Harris is doing. She has a narrow road to victory and it does not work if every pro-Palestinian vote she gains costs her more than one pro-Israeli vote.

What do the numbers say?
 

Neill78

Ars Scholae Palatinae
1,037
Subscriptor
When did it become in politics that you have to give people all exactly what they want or they will go mutually-assured destruction on you? What happened to being the better option?

Has this country really become so entitled that you vote for the person potentially bringing down democracy entirely, rather than the one who is better for your interests, just because the better one hasn’t given you everything you want?

And people cheer this on as though it actually makes any sense?

EDIT: And does no one realize that the response to punishing someone for not giving you everything you want is likely giving you nothing that you want?
I think that's exactly the problem and why we have to clearly identify what exactly this fight is against.

Part of the problem is that America's 2-party political system doesn't support any nuance, so everything becomes black and white, us and them, sometimes down to one issue.

But it's also happening in parliamentary systems around the world because of the constant attacks on truth and reality, global issues that are emotional, and a constant disruption or destruction of "meaning" so that we end up with threads like this... "Oh yeah, you think everyone's a Nazi".

As a linguist I've been very upset about the trend of co-opting meaningful words and phrases into slurs since 2010 or so (woke, critical race theory, vaccinated) as it's right from the fascist playbook. "Communism" and "socialism" were the old standbys for 70 years but now the bogeymen have expanded to "liberal" and "progressive" and now even "democracy" is beginning to slip into negative territory.

Pervert meaning and you can't find a shared reality, and here we are.

And yet a lot of people seem to be:

🔥:finedog:🔥

Edited: grammar led to wrong meaning in opening paragraph.
 

Chuckles

Ars Scholae Palatinae
899
Subscriptor
So, should we talk about how Trump insists there's already a giant faucet that takes a day on, will route massive amounts of water from the PNW to Los Angeles, and for some reason nobody is using it?

https://www.koin.com/news/oregon/ex...can-divert-water-from-pnw-to-la-doesnt-exist/
The best solution if they went this route has been tried. The Klamath and Trinity Rivers in NorCal have a substantial watershed, and the topography means that a dam can placed close to the mouth.

The bad news is that it has been tried and shot down. Given the activities with the removal of the Copco dams, I suspect that adding a new, larger dam would not be appreciated.
 

Starbuck79

Ars Legatus Legionis
30,012
Subscriptor
Call me an idiot I guess, but every time I think that fucker can't say anything stupider he goes and fucking does it.
At a rally on Sunday in Erie, Pennsylvania, Trump casually seemed to suggest that one day of violence would put an end to crime.

Trump declared that Rep. Mike Kelly (R-Pa.) should be put in charge for “one really violent day.”

“One rough hour. And I mean real rough, the world will get it out and it will end immediately. End immediately. You know, it will end immediately,” he added without sharing any logistics.

The Purge. Trump just called for The Purge.
 

LTParis

Ars Legatus Legionis
22,932
Subscriptor
The fact we are just a smidge over 30 days out and it's still this close is frightening. Not that put much stock in Atlas's polls because they seem to be trying to compensate for 2016 errors. But we are in a much different landscape now post the end of Roe.

But only time will tell.
 

Scifigod

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
7,675
Subscriptor++

Starbuck79

Ars Legatus Legionis
30,012
Subscriptor
I'm not seeing a link to the video even though it's mentioned in the mediate article and I didn't see it in the huff post article.
Full article: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/donald-trump-solution-crime-the-purge_n_66f9b7c8e4b019aae3aa34a3



“See, we have to let the police do their job, and if they have to be extraordinarily rough. And you know, the funny thing with all of that stuff, look at the department store, same thing … You see these guys walking out with air conditioners, with refrigerators on their back, the craziest thing, and the police aren’t allowed to do their job,” Trump said. “They’re told, if you do anything, you’re going to lose your pension — you’re going to lose your family, your house, your car. The police want to do it. The border patrol wants to do it … They’re not allowed to do it because the liberal left won’t let him do it. The liberal left wants to destroy them, and they want to destroy our country.”

Trump then fantasized about giving police one “really violent day” to crack down on crime.

“Now, if you had one really violent day,” Trump said. “Like a guy like Mike Kelly, put him in charge,” he continued, gesturing to Pennsylvania Republican Rep. Mike Kelly. “Congressman Kelly, put him in charge for one day. Mike, he’s a great Congressman. Would you say, Mike, that if you were in charge, you would say, ‘Oh, please don’t touch them. Don’t touch them. Let them rob your store’?” Trump said. “’Let all these stores go out of business, right?’ They don’t pay rent that the city doesn’t. The whole — it’s a chain of events. It’s so bad. One rough hour, and I mean real rough, and the word will get out and it will end immediately. End immediately.”

Linked Paragraphs go to X Video clips.

I guess he is technically only calling for a Day, or even an Hour, of Unchecked Police Brutality, and not the actual Purge.
 
D

Deleted member 12245

Guest
No, it was an actual EV Summit at the White House. GM, Ford and Stellantis were all invited, despite making a paltry number of EVs in the USA compared to Tesla.

For @poochyena - Funding a brand new car company in the USA has been an extremely unlikely way to make money for many decades.

There's plenty of legitimate complaints against Musk, including ones more relevant to this thread. Such as his radical right-wing extremism and trying to get Trump elected both by his slanted control of Twitter content and by direct donations.

Off topic, but this is really the gut punch. I remember flying over the Tesla factory and being so proud, seeing EVs made in Cali. Then he burned billions just so he could have the privilege of telling my friends and family how much they suck without getting moderated. He could have just done that for free.
 

etr

Ars Scholae Palatinae
881
Yeah. The guy who moved the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem is somehow goood for Palestinians? The only thing that can be said that’s positive about Trump and Palestinians is that he happened to not be the president when Oct. 7 and its fallout occurred.
I don't want those votes going anywhere but the Harris ticket, and it's not very rational for them to go uncast, go to a third-party candidate, or go to Trump.

That said, it's fair to question whether there will be a Palestine in by November 2028 if there is not a pivot on strategy here. Things don't look good for Gaza, and it would not be hard to imagine greedy eyes turning to the West Bank if left unchecked. Oh, and if Harris does win and keep the status quo, how likely is she to make a change in a second term? Are Republicans really likely to offer something better in 2028 if they lose in 2024?

Hands down, things could be made worse, and Trump would be happy to be the one to do it. However, folks are too wrapped up trying to avoid a big short-term loss. It's not great strategy, but it's a very human mistake...and one for which I find it hard to issue a ton of blame.

That said, Harris is probably playing it right. Even if she plans to pivot (probably slowly) once in office, it would be political malpractice to say so at this point. She'd alienate more votes than she would win and also create problems in the current administration.

The election is going to be a white-knucked ride. Ugh.
 

Macam

Ars Scholae Palatinae
1,131
The ironic thing is that it may not even need discussions into that territory for truly undecided. The Republicans were traditionally the party of fiscal responsibility. Where is that now? Trump's stated policies and/or Project 2025 would be an unmitigated disaster, and would help China immensely, if enacted. Similarly, the old Republicans were the party of a strong military. How does that jibe with isolationism?

The Republicans have never been the party of fiscal responsibility in my entire lifetime and I’m not a youngblood. They just 1) blow money on tax cuts for the wealthy/corporations and the defense department, 2) generally refuse to actually raise revenues for those efforts because they profess, nominally and not with any particularly convincing sincerity, that the economy will magically grow sufficiently as a result to offset those expenditures. And if/when it doesn’t, well, it’s the other party’s fault and, also, we’re out. See you in four or eight years, have fun cleaning it up.

As for the rest of it, it assumes a responsible political party focused on governing and a collective sense of ownership, and not a nihilistic, power-at-all-costs party that only cares about self-enrichment for the various power brokers and supporters.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.