Apple and Gaming

CommanderJameson

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Here’s another reality check, and a data point re: the gaming culture. RTX5090 pricing is insane, but people are going to buy these cards, specifically to play games on them:
1739020871158.png

You can buy a not-shit MacBook Pro for the price of one of these cards, and the people buying them will be spending the price of a not-shit MacBook Pro again on the rest of the system. The people buying these components and building these systems also buy the launch day Digital Platinum Gullible Moron Collector’s Edition of games, with bonus horse armour and fully-posable ready-for-landfill plastic tat, all for the bargain price of £199.
 

gabemaroz

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People also buy Ferraris and Maseratis when a Toyota will move you around just the same. The vast majority of (PC) gamers are playing on moderate hardware – the NVIDIA XX60 series cards.

People also buy those cards to run high performance video editing, LLMs, cryptocurrency mining, etc. It's a data point around gaming, but not really an important one. Game developers typically target current generation consoles.
 
It may not be compelling, but what if it's reality?

I'm going to argue that "game machine" means something beyond "...it can play games too." It's about audience.

Consoles, obviously, are game machines because that's all they do, play games. No one is buying a console for anything else. There is no need to convince a console buyer of the value of paying for or playing games.

Most PCs aren't good at playing games and aren't designed to play games. That's why there are gaming PCs and laptops that are purposefully designed and built to support the technologies important to gaming. They are game machines. No one buying a gaming PC needs to be convinced of the value of paying for or playing games.

These "game machines" exist because there is a culture of gaming that makes them economically viable. Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft have created generations of consoles and poured untold billions into supporting deep catalogs of titles and the ecosystems to make them destination devices for gaming. Build it and they will come, yes, but also, constantly give them reasons to come back.

Gaming PCs and laptops allow buyers to customize and tweak their capabilities to support specific games, game types, or performance targets within the boundaries of almost any budget. Add a diverse range of equally-supported storefronts to buy games (most importantly, Steam) and you have console-like purpose and ease of use.

Macs are good at games as a side effect, not as a goal. There is no audience of gamers paying top dollar for a purpose-built "gaming Mac" and there is no passionate culture of people willing to pay day-one money for the games to run on them. There is no investment by Apple to seed a deep catalog of native games to make the Mac a destination for gaming and specific games.

Ultimately, as the last few messages in this thread attest, technologies designed to harness the power of modern Apple hardware and act as a shim, translation layer, or emulator for software designed for other systems, may end up being the best way to pursuing gaming on the Mac. Because by their very nature and complexity, setups like this are going to appeal to people with the skill and passion to make them work with the reward of gaining access to a depth of titles that will never be duplicated natively. What gaming culture exists on the Mac will recognize this opportunity and take it. Because there is no other viable option.
You and I are largely agreement here, so I’m trying to pick my words carefully to avoid looking like I’m pushing back harder than I am. But I still think that doesn't fully explain things.

First, I’m going to ignore the consoles and, the Steam Deck, and even gaming handheld PCs. Those are dedicated devices bought solely for gaming that do nothing else, so even as cross-platform development has become the norm the crossover between them and the PC gaming market is minimal.

But on the PC side, gaming PCs are a tiny subset of the market. Just look at gabemaroz’s Steam survey above. A xx60 GPU or lower makes up not just the majority of the market, but the vast and overwhelming majority of it. A 3080 or higher makes up less than 10% Steam’s demographics, and as a service dedicated only to games that's the ceiling for penetration of high-end cards. True gaming PCs are the DSLR of PC gaming, a dedicated device for the dedicated gamer. For most PC gamers, their game machine is the PC they already have. Maybe they splurged and bumped from the Intel integrated graphics to a dedicated GPU (although two of Steam’s top 20 GPUs are integrated), but they didn’t aim high. I would argue that the same point you made about Macs, that they’re good at games as a side effect and not a goal, is true of 80+% of PCs that play games (distinct from gaming PCs).

In that competition that Mac holds up pretty well. A base Mn is in the ballpark of the contemporary x050 from Nvidia, the Mn Pro somewhere around an 060 Ti, and a Max an 070 Ti. That’s…actually pretty reasonable. The slowest Mac on sale today, the M2 MBA, would only be a little below average for Steam and the M3 is probably about the 50th percentile.

If you want to talk culture, it's hard to believe that gamers aren't heavily represented in Apple's core demographics. They have business users sure, but they're over-represented with end consumers and students, which is where your gamers are. You’ve got millions of college students walking around carrying MacBooks of various guises, and college students are known to enjoy the occasional game. They may not play games on their Macs, but they play games.

And that’s why I don’t find the arguments about Macs as gaming machines or Mac users as gamers compelling. It’s the easy, obvious answer, but if you really look at things I'm not convinced it holds up. "Macs aren't good game machines" simply isn't true. Maybe Macs aren't designed to play games, but their performance is reasonable at minimum and respectable at the high end. Yes they're more expensive than a comparable gaming PC, but if you're already buying a Mac anyway splurging on the next tier of processor is still cheaper than a second computer just for games (buying a console is another matter). "Mac users aren't gamers," well without actual surveys I can't make any definitive statements but Apple's main demographics include a lot of people you'd expect to be gamers.

On top of that, looking at the larger gaming industry publishers are desperate to increase sales. Development costs for AAA games have skyrocketed. AAA games cost $2-300 million easily, if not more. Third parties have essentially abandoned exclusives; console manufacturers can't subsidize them enough to make up for lost sales. MS has gone so far as to try to be the first console manufacturer to abandon even first party exclusives. And here's Apple sitting with a platform that's only slightly less standardized than a console and a highly affluent customer base. There ought to be gold in them there hills.

What about development environment? That Apple requires Metal (or shims) does create a hurdle, but hardly an insurmountable one. And current game engines are already abstracted enough anyway that supporting platform-specific APIs isn't overly difficult (DIrectX on Xbox, Vulkan/DirectX on PC, whatever private API Sony and Nintendo use). But I think we're finally getting closer.

You want my best guess? Go to Jason Snell's latest Apple Report Card, then scroll down towards to bottom to the section labeled "Developer Relations." Grade D, average 2.4 down from an already mediocre 3.0 a year ago. In a reprise of mid-90s Nintendo going into the N64 era when third parties abandoned them in droves for the far more friendly PS1 environment. Nintendo's reputation was so toxic that a decade later, long after Iwata had reversed course and worked on building relationships, when the Wii frequently outsold the PS3 and 360 combined with development costs a fraction of those systems, third party support was still terrible. It wasn't until the Switch that they finally restored those relationships to a meaningful degree, and some devs and publishers like Rockstar and EA have still held out until the Switch 2 (which it looks like they'll finally be supporting wholeheartedly).

The problem isn't hardware, or user demographics/culture, or size of installed base, or the platform in and of itself, or any of the other obvious answers. The problem is Apple and the disdain they've shown for games since the beginning compounded by all the developer relations they've spent the last number of years setting on fire then salting the earth afterwards. And if Nintendo is any indication once apple finally acknowledges their actual problem and reverses course, it's probably a 10-15 year process to build that trust up. It's built by drops and lost in buckets.
 

cateye

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You and I are largely agreement here, so I’m trying to pick my words carefully to avoid looking like I’m pushing back harder than I am. But I still think that doesn't fully explain things.

Great post. And yes, I agree, we are for the most part on the same page, if not exactly aligned on the details. I still believe gaming culture is nonexistent on the Mac, as the sad sales of the most recent performative AAA title releases would suggest. An active, engaged, motivated user base would support the platform with dollars. There isn't, so they don't.

If there was a vocal gaming culture on the Mac, that might force Apple's hand to address its developer relation deficiencies, and the chicken-and-egg situation with regard to A-class games would start to solve itself. But even as I type that I realize I'm being ridiculously naive. Apple will do whatever the hell it wants in the manner in which satisfies its own goals or—more precisely—perceptions. The rest of us, developers included, are merely passengers on that bus.

I'll be interested to see how Cyberpunk 2077 does. Yes, it's still an old game getting a very late release on Apple platforms, but due to its rocky debut, its arc of popularity worked out a lot different than many other games and there's still a highly engaged audience. I wonder if some of that will translate onto the Mac and allow it to out-perform the norm.
 

japtor

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I still believe gaming culture is nonexistent on the Mac, as the sad sales of the most recent performative AAA title releases would suggest. An active, engaged, motivated user base would support the platform with dollars. There isn't, so they don't.
Might be a weird argument but I'd say it's specifically to the Mac as a platform, while there's plenty of gamers among the Mac users. Like it's a chicken and egg situation in this sense too, where the gamers are there but the platform is generally known as a gaming wasteland, so why should they bother supporting the platform.

The mentioned affluence of Mac users comes into play here too I figure, cause decent chance any Mac user that's a gamer has another computer/console for gaming. Even more reason to not bother, why buy the few few Mac releases when everything else the owner has is on their other devices.

Thinking about it maybe the best thing they could do is go after the big F2P games/devs for support. Players can just play that stuff without thinking about investing anything, vs the relatively high cost barrier to entry for the other high profile stuff they've been highlighting. Like anecdotally Marvel Rivals seems like the big thing among my gaming circles lately, but any Mac users thinking about it will just have to play elsewhere*, just reinforcing the whole Mac gaming narrative.

*or go through some Wine hoops for a lesser experience, and potentially a 100 year ban, but sounds like that's worked out at least.
And if Nintendo is any indication once apple finally acknowledges their actual problem and reverses course, it's probably a 10-15 year process to build that trust up. It's built by drops and lost in buckets.
And yeah, even if they are doing everything right right now, it'll likely take years to see dividends. The best hope for something sooner is pubs/devs being desperate for more users and going to the Mac for support. Feels like they're looking to Switch 2 as the big hope but maybe the Mac can get some scraps too.
 

wrylachlan

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And if Nintendo is any indication once apple finally acknowledges their actual problem and reverses course, it's probably a 10-15 year process to build that trust up. It's built by drops and lost in buckets.
Meh. Nintendo had two problems - low powered hardware AND poor developer relations/tooling. It takes a lot of effort to extract acceptable performance out of sub-par hardware, so you need great dev relations to make devs think it’s worth their while to put in that extra effort. Apple today only has one of those problems. Their hardware, as you pointed out, is more than adequate. It’s the dev relations alone that are the bottleneck.

So does Apple need to put in the effort? Yes.
Will they? Anybody’s guess, leaning no.
If the did put in the effort would it be a decade to win devs back? Hell no. The right incentives could catalyze a Mac gaming ecosystem in a fraction of that time.
 

Louis XVI

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Anybody playing Civ 7 on a Mac yet? I’m torn between buying it for my PS5 or my Mac (yeah, I know, I should hold off on buying it on any platform for a while, but I probably won’t be able to resist.) I’d much rather have it on my laptop, so I won’t be limited to playing it in my cave where the Playstation is, but I’m not sure my Mac is quite up to running it well. It’s an M1 Pro MBP, with 16GB of RAM.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
 

jeanlain

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Their hardware, as you pointed out, is more than adequate.
But Apple's hardware is not dedicated to gaming. No one buys a Mac for gaming. If you want to game on a computer, get a PC.
As for the iPhone/iPad, neither is adequate (for non-casual gaming, that is). Mostly because of touch controls.

IMO, it's the lack of dedicated hardware that's the main hindrance. Good developer relationships won't suffice.
 
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wrylachlan

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But Apple's hardware is not dedicated to gaming. No one buys a Mac for gaming. If you want to game on a computer, get a PC.
As for the iPhone/iPad, neither is not adequate (for non-casual gaming, that is). Mostly because of touch controls.

IMO, it's the lack of dedicated hardware that's the main hindrance. Good developer relationships won't suffice.
No one buys an iPhone just to surf the web. No one buys an iPhone just to order Ubers. No one buys an iPhone just to [insert killer app here]. iPhones, Macs and iPads are general purpose computing devices. So is the PC. And yet the PC has a robust gaming ecosystem.

The point I was making is that what stands between Apple and the kind of gaming ecosystem that exists on PC is developer related and pretty much only developer related at this point. The hardware isn’t a meaningful problem.
 

jeanlain

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No one buys an iPhone just to surf the web. No one buys an iPhone just to order Ubers. No one buys an iPhone just to [insert killer app here]. iPhones, Macs and iPads are general purpose computing devices. So is the PC. And yet the PC has a robust gaming ecosystem.
Well there's a difference. There are web browsers which work well on an iPhone. Tens of thousands of apps. But almost no AAA games. Why is that?
Being a general purpose computing device is what makes a smartphone a poor gaming device. Touch controls just suck for most types of games. There's the storage size issue too.
The PC doesn't have those issues. Release a game on Windows and it will run on 90% of personal computers for the next 15+ years. Not so much for macOS.

Apple doesn't have the hardware/software ecosystem to support games. The iPhone has a large user base but isn't good for gaming. The Mac could be a decent gaming platform, but it is insignificant.
Developer relationships really aren't the main hindrance.
 

dmsilev

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Anybody playing Civ 7 on a Mac yet? I’m torn between buying it for my PS5 or my Mac (yeah, I know, I should hold off on buying it on any platform for a while, but I probably won’t be able to resist.) I’d much rather have it on my laptop, so I won’t be limited to playing it in my cave where the Playstation is, but I’m not sure my Mac is quite up to running it well. It’s an M1 Pro MBP, with 16GB of RAM.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Yes, I have it. Machine is an MBP, M1 mini-Max (the cut-down GPU) w/ 32 GB of RAM. The game runs fine, though I haven't gotten very far into it yet (the end of the first age, basically). The one nuisance, and I've already put in a bug report, is apparently the Exit button doesn't work so you have to CMD-Tab out and force-quit the application. Other than that, the usual complaints about a Civ game on release, but that's platform-independent.
 
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FTFY: If you want to game on a computer while also having a life, you'll possibly find what the Mac offers more than adequate.

Not really valid IMO. It's about choice.

IOW, if you are just looking for some game to kill time, a Mac is fine.

But if you actually want to play specific games that interests you, get a PC. Even if you have limited time to game (because you have a life), you may still want the luxury of choice.
 
Not really valid IMO. It's about choice.

IOW, if you are just looking for some game to kill time, a Mac is fine.

But if you actually want to play specific games that interests you, get a PC. Even if you have limited time to game (because you have a life), you may still want the luxury of choice.

I have more to select from than I could possibly ever play. I understand that's a very personal POV but it's valid and in fact the only answer that matters to me whenever someone tells me to get a PC if I want to game.

And if one day that single game came around that made me forget about my life, responsibilities and time restrictions – I'd get a Steam Deck instead of a effing PC.

Also: How much choice do you need? Is everything the PC platform offers enough, or would real freedom of choice consequently mean owning a Switch and a Playstation as well? And what is gaming for other than killing time?

Apologies for all the questions, these are not meant to be confrontational and directed at you personally but rather rhetoric ...
 

CommanderJameson

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I have more to select from than I could possibly ever play. I understand that's a very personal POV but it's valid and in fact the only answer that matters to me whenever someone tells me to get a PC if I want to game.
OK, but maybe stop invalidating other points of view with your “having a life” pisswash.
Also: How much choice do you need?
The games I want to play simply do not exist on the Mac. And, it seems, they never will.
Is everything the PC platform offers enough
Yes, because it has (nearly) All The Games.
or would real freedom of choice consequently mean owning a Switch and a Playstation as well?
Maybe, if there are platform exclusives you want to play.
And what is gaming for other than killing time?
What’s that got to do with anything? If this is valid, Chess.app comes with your Mac, so play that.
 

cateye

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Also: How much choice do you need? Is everything the PC platform offers enough, or would real freedom of choice consequently mean owning a Switch and a Playstation as well? And what is gaming for other than killing time?

Certainly for some folks, the games that are available on the Mac are enough. But I suspect those people are approaching it from the position, "I want to play a game. I have a Mac. What's available?" versus "I want to play that specific game. What platform do I need to play it?" The game matters, the platform does not.

So the answer to "how much choice do you need" is "how much do you want to be able to make that choice versus having it enforced on you due to scarcity."

Put another way, why subscribe to Netflix, Paramount+, Max or Hulu when AppleTV+ has "plenty" to watch? Which brings me to...

And if one day that single game came around that made me forget about my life, responsibilities and time restrictions

If even only rhetorically, you're making the same assumptions about gaming that have poisoned the well at Apple for going on 40 years. Somehow I am able to run my business, take care of my family, do my share of housework, exercise, work on the house, help my daughter with her homework, yadda yadda, all while spending usually around 1-3 hours a night, every night, gaming. I play through probably a dozen A-level games a year, in addition to being a competitive Halo-series player for over a decade. Conversely, I watch almost no television, and don't really value having more choices beyond YouTube and the occasional Netflix series. Yet I don't think most would apply the same judgement about "having a life" to anyone who subscribes to multiple streaming services in order to access the shows they want to watch.

The value of choice matters to me in gaming, it doesn't matter to me in television. Leisure time and hobbies are personal. People are going to advocate for that which matters to them.
 

CommanderJameson

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... immersing oneself in interactive story-telling, solving challenging puzzles, virtual empire building, seeking adrenaline highs from competition, team building... The list goes on and on.
Beating sweaty teens (as an old fart) at COD and drinking their delicious salty tears...
 

cateye

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Beating sweaty teens (as an old fart) at COD and drinking their delicious salty tears...

Eventually, my reaction times, ability to memorize sight lines on dozens of maps, and the patience to keep track of the entire enemy squad at all times, will fade and I'll no longer be able to keep up with the youths. That time, however, is not now. :devilish: pew pew pew.
 

cateye

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Tangentially related, Unity continues to have going-concern problems. It can't be over-stated how completely they have damaged themselves as a result of their attempted licensing fee changes.

In an ideal world Apple would at least bury the hatchet with Epic-the-software-developer and commit engineering resources to help them achieve feature and perhaps performance parity, even if it wants to keep pounding sand with Eric-Sweeney-head-of-Epic.
 

japtor

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But Apple's hardware is not dedicated to gaming. No one buys a Mac for gaming. If you want to game on a computer, get a PC.
As for the iPhone/iPad, neither is adequate (for non-casual gaming, that is). Mostly because of touch controls.

IMO, it's the lack of dedicated hardware that's the main hindrance. Good developer relationships won't suffice.
Realistically if they did dedicated gaming hardware it'd just be another offshoot of iOS or Mac hardware. With the same developer (and publisher) issues. People won't care without the games.

Hell Microsoft's been having a hell of a time with games, and arguably a pretty good value proposition with everything they got these days. And they're doing worse than ever with hardware.

Gaming be a harsh mistress.
 

Mhorydyn

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FTFY: If you want to game on a computer while also having a life, you'll possibly find what the Mac offers more than adequate.

And if one day that single game came around that made me forget about my life, responsibilities and time restrictions – I'd get a Steam Deck instead of a effing PC.

Also: How much choice do you need? Is everything the PC platform offers enough, or would real freedom of choice consequently mean owning a Switch and a Playstation as well? And what is gaming for other than killing time?

You seem to be coming at this from a place of misunderstanding, if not antagonism, towards gaming as a whole. Let's try this to help your perspective: 'What is reading/watchingTV/watching movies/playing sports for other than killing time?' Do any of those variants sound absurd to you? Gaming runs the gamut from, sure, something you do to kill time while waiting on the bus all the way to incredible, immersive, interactive stories that can't be matched in any other medium. When I complain about Apple not getting gaming and their devices not being up to the task, the latter range is what I'm referring to. For most Mac users, a Steam Deck and a Switch will cover a huge chunk of the best games out there (and will cost in the ballpark of a BTO upgrade to improve gaming performance on a Mac). For me, Half-Life: Alyx was such a singularly amazing experience that I'd happily build a gaming PC and buy a headset just for that one game. I've gone over it before, but being able to disregard GPU performance entirely when I buy Macs roughly covers the cost of my gaming PC & upgrades. Plus, it's a far better, more flexible, tool for the job. Dropping a new GPU into my PC can easily get me many more years of quality gaming, but I'd be stuck having to buy an entirely new machine if I tried to do it all with my Mac.
 
Great post. And yes, I agree, we are for the most part on the same page, if not exactly aligned on the details. I still believe gaming culture is nonexistent on the Mac, as the sad sales of the most recent performative AAA title releases would suggest. An active, engaged, motivated user base would support the platform with dollars. There isn't, so they don't.

If there was a vocal gaming culture on the Mac, that might force Apple's hand to address its developer relation deficiencies, and the chicken-and-egg situation with regard to A-class games would start to solve itself. But even as I type that I realize I'm being ridiculously naive. Apple will do whatever the hell it wants in the manner in which satisfies its own goals or—more precisely—perceptions. The rest of us, developers included, are merely passengers on that bus.

I'll be interested to see how Cyberpunk 2077 does. Yes, it's still an old game getting a very late release on Apple platforms, but due to its rocky debut, its arc of popularity worked out a lot different than many other games and there's still a highly engaged audience. I wonder if some of that will translate onto the Mac and allow it to out-perform the norm.
I think where we differ is in the reason that culture, as such, doesn’t exist, as well as how important that culture is in driving a market vs resulting from it.

Here’s a hypothetical for you: If over the next five years everything stayed the same except the Mac got Windows-equivalent dev support (so all PC games released day-and-date Mac versions but no extra performance, gaming hardware, overall sales, API support, etc. except what was going to happen anyway), what do you think Mac gaming would look like?
 
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cateye

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Here’s a hypothetical for you: If over the next five years everything stayed the same except the Mac got Windows-equivalent dev support (so all PC games released day-and-date Mac versions but no extra performance, gaming hardware, overall sales, API support, etc. except what was going to happen anyway), what do you think Mac gaming would look like?

Interesting question. I don't really know, honestly. If nothing else changed, I doubt even a steady stream of concurrent releases would move the needle much. It might encourage some portion of gamers-who-own-a-Mac-but-don't-game-on-it to spend some of their gaming budget for the Mac version. Or perhaps it might encourage more casual gamers who have been satisfied with what existed previously to branch out and try more day-one titles, moving Mac gaming more into the mainstream. Would this be enough to start the snowball rolling and make it worthwhile for those developers? Probably not, not without Apple aggressively courting both the developers and their audiences.

We got three or four unexpected releases of A-level titles for Apple platforms over the last year or so with the end result being a solid Bronx cheer. So I'm hesitant to suggest a magic number—8 releases, 12, 20?—that would be "enough" to make a difference. There probably isn't a magic number, absent money and effort spent to encourage an ecosystem on its own terms, rather than as yet another silo for Apple to control.
 
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japtor

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Here’s a hypothetical for you: If over the next five years everything stayed the same except the Mac got Windows-equivalent dev support (so all PC games released day-and-date Mac versions but no extra performance, gaming hardware, overall sales, API support, etc. except what was going to happen anyway), what do you think Mac gaming would look like?
Would there be any major complaints at that point? All the kvetching about Mac games is simply the lack of them. Things would move onto lesser stuff like relative performance between whatever machines/specs/platforms but that happens with everything already.

The biggest issue with the culture isn't the lack of gamers using Macs, it's just the (mostly accurate) perception of the lack of game options on the Mac. A lot of the time if my friends mention playing whatever game together, the first question in my head is if it's even available for me. If everything expected is available then it's just like any other game platform at that point.

I think with the Mac in particular it'd make a difference cause the majority of sales are laptops. There's a convenience (and cost) factor of just being able to play on what you got there vs either needing another machine, whether another laptop or handheld, or desktop. (And for people that like gaming at a desktop setup, just dock the laptop)
Not a single one (afaik) was meaningfully multiplayer.
Yeah multiplayer is big...particularly when talking about culture. It just kinda reinforces the lack of game perception though social/network effects when the Mac users can't play with others.

Speaking of which, tried getting Marvel Rivals going recently but got nowhere. Supposedly works in Crossover though.

On the other hand Rocket League works great at least.
 
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