Volvo debuts its fully autonomous big rig truck powered by Aurora’s tech

Some believe autonomous trucks are the answer to a shortage of truck drivers.

See full article...

 

[OrvGull]

How is that different to a human driver? It'd be driving the same computer generated route to make deliveries in the order specified by the computer as the human is now.

A human driver can leave the package on my doorstep, or in a package lockbox if I have one, with the leasing office, etc.

 

[ChicagoCurmudgeon]

I think you are confusing long haul trucking, which this appears to be designed for and amazon delivery trucks. Long haul drivers can easily make 6 figures these days. Also, there have been regulations on hours driven for decades.

edit. I saw a truck yesterday from one of the big US carriers with one of those "we're hiring" signs on it. "$2500 per week AFTER expenses, owner/operators higher rates". Pretty typical ad around here. Some will even pay to send you to CDL school. Certainly a living wage.

I don't know what most posters think a "living wage" is, but the Department of Labor thinks that Heavy and Tractor-Trailer Truck Drivers make $27 an hour, or $56k a year as of May 2023. This varies by state. That beats the pants off Drivers/Sales Workers (the guys who are always double-parked dropping things off). Those guys make $18 an hour or $38 k a year.

You are better off being a truck mechanic. $28 an hour, or $60k a year.

 

[alisonken1]

My tangent: What would a fully autonomous truck look like if a human occupant wasn't considered in its design? No cab, doors, windshield, air conditioning, wipers ... seems like it'd be bound to affect what you could do aerodynamically, and weight too. Of course that'd also have to be legal. Maybe it's more palatable trying initially to get laws passed for remotely operated trucks, as opposed to autonomous ones.

if you Google for "cabless truck" you get some interesting results.

 

[dagar9]

That was from government regulation, and had nothing to do with automation.

The 40 hour week was from unions. Government regulation followed, being seen as less damage than massive nationwide strikes.

 

[AProf]

Wow, so many of the comments are so luddite-like. I am surprised to hear how anti tech the comments are. If not for machines replacing jobs, most of us would still be working on the farm without any fancy tech gadgets, cars, etc.

 

[FlyoverLand]

I don't see an autonomous semi truck getting its load to where it has to go in a winter snow storm in the northern states. I think it would be better to use the self driving technology to help the driver avoid errors.

80% is the easy part, the last 20% is very hard.

 

[m0nckywrench]

You could argue the same for railroads.

I do. Convincing others is the difficult part, and the US areas most in need of rail transport will have stunningly expensive rights of way. Some right of way issues can be solved with tunneling but that's also stunningly expensive though with less NIMBY. Granting land was the affordable way to establish US railroads using private risk capital and a huge success, but there is little land in the right places to grant.

The American public are not collectively intelligent enough to solve their own problems or reward those who might with power to do so.
People who curate their company at work and play often imagine the masses to be intelligent, moral actors. That delusion is deeply cherished
by those masses who demand pandering in return for power. The rail issue will not be solved because technical merits don't matter to morons.

You are better off being a truck mechanic. $28 an hour, or $60k a year.

I would prefer to wrench than drive but for what they're expected to know and do that compensation sucks which is why many quit the industry. Quitting is more of an issue with automobiles which have near zero barrier to entry but in both cases technician quality declines. Even in the aiation world compensation is often poor (which is why I chose the USAF instead):


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNn6Yzcwpvw

 

[m0nckywrench]

if you Google for "cabless truck" you get some interesting results.

Indeed, and one interesting result is automated loading systems displacing lumpers.

https://cdllife.com/2023/cabless-driverless-trucks-now-in-full-time-use-at-tennessee-warehouse/
“TaskWatch’s AI cameras trigger a control board to raise and lower the dock doors, dock plate, lock the Einride autonomous vehicle into place and notify the Slip robot that the autonomous vehicle is ready for loading. The Slip then autonomously loads and unloads the vehicle, reducing loading times by 80%,” Einride said.

The fewer people who touch loads the fewer potential dock thieves.

 

[Uragan]

Indeed, and one interesting result is automated loading systems displacing lumpers.

The fewer people who touch loads the fewer potential dock thieves.

Honestly, that's pretty awesome. I do think it's interesting that this is done solely on private roads, owned by GE, so it minimizes the amount of interactions with other traffic that could cause the software to fumble. And like the article says, that's basically Level 4.

I could almost see this working at the shipyard I used to work for since it has a ton of private internal roads and a lot of workshops and warehouses.

 

[OrangeCream]

I don't see an autonomous semi truck getting its load to where it has to go in a winter snow storm in the northern states. I think it would be better to use the self driving technology to help the driver avoid errors.

80% is the easy part, the last 20% is very hard.

Why would an autonomous truck have any more difficulty than a human?

Unlike a human, a truck has more sensors and data. GPS, visible light, infrared light, cameras, LIDAR, and on top of that, the ability to monitor all sensors simultaneously, monitor traction per driven wheel, and respond seconds faster than a person.

A person in that situation will likely get in the way of the truck.

This assumes obviously that a self driving truck exists.

 

[OrvGull]

Why would an autonomous truck have any more difficulty than a human?

Unlike a human, a truck has more sensors and data. GPS, visible light, infrared light, cameras, LIDAR, and on top of that, the ability to monitor all sensors simultaneously, monitor traction per driven wheel, and respond seconds faster than a person.

Most systems I've seen give up as soon as the lane markings are obscured, which is inevitable in snow. The lane-following assistance in my car has problems with certain sun angles, even.

 

[OrangeCream]

Most systems I've seen give up as soon as the lane markings are obscured, which is inevitable in snow. The lane-following assistance in my car has problems with certain sun angles, even.

Today’s systems rely predominantly on camera and have the same failings as humans.
https://www.carscoops.com/2024/05/t...nd-aurora-launch-level-4-self-driving-trucks/The technology behind the automation is known as Aurora Driver, a Level 4 autonomous system that uses a dizzying combination of AI software, computers, cameras, imaging radar, sensors, and LiDAR to navigate the world

And any conditions that are unsafe for a self driving vehicle is more unsafe for a human, and in both cases no one should be driving:
https://blog.aurora.tech/products/capability-spotlight-stormy-weatherSo when conditions become bad enough that the Aurora Driver can no longer safely and confidently drive through them even at reduced speed, it will begin searching for a safe place to stop and will alert the Command Center

 

[Numfuddle]

I do. Convincing others is the difficult part, and the US areas most in need of rail transport will have stunningly expensive rights of way. Some right of way issues can be solved with tunneling but that's also stunningly expensive though with less NIMBY. Granting land was the affordable way to establish US railroads using private risk capital and a huge success, but there is little land in the right places to grant.

The American public are not collectively intelligent enough to solve their own problems or reward those who might with power to do so.
People who curate their company at work and play often imagine the masses to be intelligent, moral actors. That delusion is deeply cherished
by those masses who demand pandering in return for power. The rail issue will not be solved because technical merits don't matter to morons.

You are better off being a truck mechanic. $28 an hour, or $60k a year.

I would prefer to wrench than drive but for what they're expected to know and do that compensation sucks which is why many quit the industry. Quitting is more of an issue with automobiles which have near zero barrier to entry but in both cases technician quality declines. Even in the aiation world compensation is often poor (which is why I chose the USAF instead):


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNn6Yzcwpvw

I've seen the Mentour video a few weeks ago and the 900 Euro listed for technician salaries in Greece is ridiculously low. In Germany skilled technicians or machinists can make almost 5 times that and even a security guard would make significanttly more than 900 Euro.

 

[OrvGull]

And any conditions that are unsafe for a self driving vehicle is more unsafe for a human, and in both cases no one should be driving:

I've driven many miles just by watching the reflector posts on the shoulder, when lane markings were totally obscured. It beats being stranded and maybe freezing to death.

 

[OrangeCream]

I've driven many miles just by watching the reflector posts on the shoulder, when lane markings were totally obscured. It beats being stranded and maybe freezing to death.

Sure, I understand. And that means a self driving truck can do the same time.

Also a self driving truck also has access to GPS to know where the road is AND where they are.

Also the truck can keep moving even if slowly at 5mph and not worry about freezing to death.

 

[OrvGull]

Sure, I understand. And that means a self driving truck can do the same time.

Citation needed. Current self-driving systems don't always notice gore points and think semis crossing the road are overhead signs.

 

[OrangeCream]

Citation needed. Current self-driving systems don't always notice gore points and think semis crossing the road are overhead signs.

No citation needed. I previously mentioned a system using LIDAR, radar, GPS, infrared, and cameras. You’re referencing a system using only cameras that cannot measure distance (LIDAR can), cannot determine absolute position (GPS can), nor mass/metallicity (radar can).

It’s like complaining that government is ineffective while voting Republican. You can’t use the system that fails as representative of a system that doesn’t.

The aforementioned Aurora system will stop when it can’t see. Tesla’s system doesn’t. It doesn’t even know it can’t see, it thinks that the truck is the sky or a sign.

 

[android_alpaca]

Most systems I've seen give up as soon as the lane markings are obscured, which is inevitable in snow. The lane-following assistance in my car has problems with certain sun angles, even.

Citation needed. Current self-driving systems don't always notice gore points and think semis crossing the road are overhead signs.

Can you list what systems are you talking about and are you conflating ADAS (advanced driver assistance system) aka SAE Level 2 autonomous systems that you have in your car with self-driving systems (aka SAE Level 4 and Level 5) on a Waymo or Cruise vehicle.

Drivable area (e.g. where a AV can and should go on the road) is an area of research that while isn't perfectly solved, can in handle the situations you mention. Here's a 2022 paper on the topic that discusses "sensor fusion of a forward-facing camera and a lidar sensor using convolutional neural networks (CNNs), for drivable area detection in winter driving, where the roads are partially covered with snow, tire tracks obscuring lane markers" and they aren't even at cutting edge of AV research.

Waymo is the leader in SAE Level 4 system and I believe can technically handle when it cannot see lane markings in terms of figuring out where on the road to drive here are some Waymo vehicles on snow covered road below from 2017

This from a Waymo in 2018 show how it is dealing with snow fall for it's sensors (before and after cleaning up the noise)

That's not to say Waymo can perfectly handle winter conditions where low traction and increased potential collisions with pedestrian, bicyclist, and other vehicles just that I don't think lack of lane markers because the road is covered in snow is the specific issue. I mean Waymo already can navigate smaller roads that don't have clear lane markers in adverse conditions. This is a road in Arizona during a dust storm, you can't see lane markers... but it is able to navigate around opposite direction traffic and pedestrians in low visibility situations



For better or worse, I think Tesla (to a lesser degree of safety) also don't have issue with snow covered roads in terms of being able to figure out where on the road to drive. It's again not completely confidant/safe in those conditions... mostly because of managing speed vs traction - but it can figure out the boundaries of snow-covered road AFAICT.



Tesla camera only system is susceptible to being blinded by low angle sun , but mostly because Elon Musk didn't want to spend too much on sensors for his Tesla (he infamously cut out ultrasonic sensors before cameras were able to replicate the same level of precision/functionality), but that's a slightly separate issue from any autonomous vehicle just being about to navigate a snow covered road as the other poster mentioned multi-sensor suites (e.g. LIDAR which isn't blinded by the sun, or even other LIDARs as I believe they are on a rotating frequency just like Bluetooth is the number of false reading (i.e. false signal/noise to real signal) they get are low compared to the hundreds of data points they are getting a second)

 

[The Sheep Look Up]

Sure, I understand. And that means a self driving truck can do the same time.

Can != Will. You know how autonomous systems usually respond to out of parameter / fail states? They freeze, usually in the form of intentionally halting, sometimes just a hard error. You know how they typically don't respond? Hooning. I'm a decent driver -- not remotely race qualified, but better than your average on the roadway and I'll smoke you on the go-kart track. There have been a number of times I've been at or over the limit of my grip in garbage conditions, sometimes that came on suddenly. I'm driving by pedal feel and wheel responsiveness, and meanwhile the TCS is losing its mind. In one particularly serendipitous moment I was exiting the freeway and my back end started coming out from under me, so I downshifted and drifted the entire ramp perfectly. It wasn't because I was that good, it was a combination of luck and adrenaline-fueled flow state and it could've gone horribly wrong. That said, ADAS or full autonomy would've almost certainly thrown its metaphorical hands up and jammed on the brakes, wildly overcorrected, or simply done nothing, comically spinning out and / or putting the car into the guardrail. Yes, the car will avoid this problem by stopping well before this point. That's "optimal"... for the car. But when you're in the midwest and getting away from a squall that spawns a tornado, late evacuating from a hurricane, or in an area where temperature drops by the minute and snow by the foot, "stay here until it's safe" can be "stay here until you're dead" and not leaving in the first place may have never been an option.

A vehicle can have near-perfect awareness of its own condition, faster reaction times, and far superior external sensors, but because of potential liability it will never be allowed a YOLO mode. As it stands, my cruise control can barely figure out I'm going down a 6% grade; it'll be a long time before I expect a vehicle to determine that particular stretch of uniformly flat fresh snow over there is where the 4' ditch should be.

 

[Snark218]

well, I work about 40 hours a week, not 80+, so at some point something must have happened

To wit, collective bargaining and government regulation.

 

[OrangeCream]

As it stands, my cruise control can barely figure out I'm going down a 6% grade; it'll be a long time before I expect a vehicle to determine that particular stretch of uniformly flat fresh snow over there is where the 4' ditch should be.

My cruise control seems to work fine on a grade.

And I expect cars with LIDAR, radar, and infrared cameras to be able see ditches. If it can’t I expiry to stop. Which is what Aurora claims its Driver does.

 

[stdaro]

To wit, collective bargaining and government regulation.

yea, we just get more of that shit.