Time for some new wifi router hotness?

[flere-imsaho]

Instead of creating a new thread I thought I'd post in here as it's most relevant to my situation.

I'm looking to replace an Orbi RBR50 + RBS50 set up that has been solid for years but recently is starting to show some signs of giving up (mainly satellites just dropping off and having a hard time re-connecting - including the wired ones).

Details:

• Cable internet 1000 Mbps / ? up (speed tests show usually 700-900 down / 35-50 up
• Split-level house with service needed to basically 2 stories
• House is not necesssarily big, but it is long, and router can only be on one end of the house
• Two wired runs (CAT5) from the router go to a) the top of the house (straight up) and to the other end of the house
• 4 heavy internet users, from gaming to WFH video, to multiple simultaneous streaming videos, depending on time of day
• Suburbs on a 1/3 acre lot, very rarely see my neighbors' wifi pop up on my phone, so I assume little contention from other networks
• I need the ability to reserve some internal IPs (like in specific for a work printer for my wife) and I'd like to do a little QoS, but I don't have a lot in the way of management needs, although I also wouldn't mind some sort of way of finding out how much bandwidth each device that attaches to my network is actually using, because holy shit do we have a lot of devices (this might be the oldster in me talking, though)
• Drywall throughout, but right in the middle of the house is and oversized concrete chimney stack

I did a little reading yesterday about all of this and my first question is whether I should wait for more WIFI 7 routers to become available. I don't really know what WIFI 7 would do for me, but if it's worth it, we can live with what we have for now.

Otherwise it seems like the TP-Link Deco or Asus ZenWifi offerings are the ones recommended by most. Is that the consensus here? I'm not considering eero because I don't trust the Google ecosystem.

As for budget, it's pretty open. I don't want a budget-oriented system, and I'm willing to pay into four figures for the base + satellites, but I don't want to pay past the point of diminishing returns.

Thanks in advance, folks.

 

[tiredoldtech]

@flere-imsaho I have a very similar setup (RBK53+3rd RBS50 satellite). When fiber finally rolls past my place in the next year or so, I planned on moving to Ubiquiti AP U7 series units (probably Pros, maybe better) and a Dream Machine Special Edition to manage my 2 level house and pole barn setup/network. I have networking in place, much like you do. It only seems prudent for the stability and options with speed. Don't get me wrong, I love my Orbi 50 series setup- but somewhere along the line, Netgear screwed the pooch when they went to newer units (several have indicated it was driven by getting too greedy). You can work with several tweaks and options on the U platform (as ARS Technica has documented in a few articles) to get the network exactly as you'd like it. Pricey? Absolutely. Stable? Definitely. Can you go cheaper? Sure, the Deco's are pretty good- but remember, with price, sometimes you lose flexibility and some of the options you may be looking for.

 

[flere-imsaho]

The Ubiquiti stuff has always seemed interesting but possibly overkill for my situation. Plus, I can't tell, but do the U7 (or U6, for that matter) units a) require a wire back to the router and/or b) have any ethernet ports should I want to connect to them via cable to, say, a desktop or XBox?

 

[tiredoldtech]

The Ubiquiti stuff has always seemed interesting but possibly overkill for my situation. Plus, I can't tell, but do the U7 (or U6, for that matter) units a) require a wire back to the router and/or b) have any ethernet ports should I want to connect to them via cable to, say, a desktop or XBox?

As they work more enterprise-y versus your common consumer/home mesh, these units need Ethernet/POE back to the controller switch that manages them. However, hand-offs between units are seamless, making it look like one big wireless network (like mesh). As you literally noted you have wired runs or are at least planning wired runs, this would fit in neatly with that configuration. They also have pretty solid QOS and network analysis tools with the Dream Machine that manages the units/network. It unfortunately appears that the only units they they still actively sell that have a pass-through port would be the older AC Pro series of AP's. You would get no benefit going that route as it is WiFi5 for those (much like the Orbi RBS50's) and not 6, 6E, or 7. Going this route with the U6 or U7 series would put what you have with existing devices as going Wireless only, but with high-throughput/stability (allowing for decent gaming, streaming, video conferences, etc). If the wiring is in open areas (such as a basement/open ceiling or crawlspace), running another wire in parallel to what you already have would then add that ability to do a separate wired device or go to a small wired switch to serve multiple devices in that locations.

Now, the Deco's- depending on the model, some have pass-through ports, are still consumer mesh to talk to each other, and even support fiber connections (BE85 and BE95 model packs). For those capabilities, be prepared to drop about $1500 for a 3 pack. If more units are needed, it will push $2k or so. The Deco software has a bunch of options in it- some works great, others functions you can flip a coin on, but that's the world of consumer.

 

[yd]

With consumer mesh systems like TP-Link you give up some tweaking features. If none of that bothers you. The TP-Link Deco system is basic enough and works fairly well. For complex installs you need something else to help you figure out placement.

If you have Concrete walls. https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-Deco-Powerline-PX50-Compatible/dp/B0BS9KL1HZ You may want to try out a TP-Link PX50 It's the G.hn standard powerline adapter mesh nodes. If powerline connects then great. If not then it still attempts to connect wirelessly. So worst case scenario is you spent an extra $100.

Judging how you say they've failed in the past. What brand was it? And either way you probably never used G.hn either as Homeplug kicked the bucket and 99% of the retail US market was Homeplug standard up until that point.

Also Wifi 7 or even 6. With Concrete the 2.4Ghz range is probablly what you're getting more of if you got signal with 1 router. With a Mesh system. It will probably attempt to hog the 2.4Ghz as the backhaul and then use 5Ghz as your local

Been revisiting this bit of fun now that I am back from my month long trip.

Was thinking that a TP Link GE800 was making some sense but the internal fan and heat has me concerned even though it seems to get great performance.

For the same cash I could get a BE800 and the bulk of the GE800's perfomance AND a pair of BE25 which would, I think, be a 'mesh' system (could put 1 BE25 up a floor to help the wife's work wifi and one above that to get to the roof/patio - I am not fussed about more signal downstairs as Netflix streams fine). That combo costs way less than any pair of TP Link deco like the 75/85/95 and is on par with a pair of 65 (but would have an extra AP with 1 more BE25).

That would then be everything wifi7 matched, same manufacturer, wireless backhauls I believe would make the BE25s just 'work' with the BE800. I think.

 

[Andrewcw]

Yeah don't mix Deco with Non-Deco. TP Link's lines are distinctive and they don't cross the streams at the urinal.

 

[yd]

Yeah don't mix Deco with Non-Deco. TP Link's lines are distinctive and they don't cross the streams at the urinal.

TP Link specifically says a BE800 (for example) is "Easy Mesh compatible - works with easy mesh routers and range extenders to form seamless whole home mesh wifi". All their modern wifi7 routers seem to be easy mesh compatible.

So this is the network expansion page of products

https://www.tp-link.com/hk/home-networking/all-network-expansion/
So you can only use things like a RE705x or RE815xe with their non Deco brand routers and be mesh compatible? Those two products are are 'mesh wifi 6 extenders' on that page. A 705x is 75 bucks.

You could, I gather, also use If you non mesh a range extender (piles of those on that page) but those would be separate network names much like using a powerline adapter and there would be no smooth handoffs as you walked around; those are only around 50 bucks for a 605x.

Seems odd their standard wifi 6/7 routers that 'work with easy mesh routers' don't include Deco because 'easy mesh routers' seem very distinctly different from 'range extenders'. A single Deco be25 would be 110 bucks and about 150 for a pair but if that is no workey, well that is out.

 

[Andrewcw]

Easymesh it the New Standard multiple brands are supposed to support.
https://www.wi-fi.org/discover-wi-fi/wi-fi-easymeshIf you wanna dog food that for us. Please! I'm out of houses and family members to experiment on as i've gotten them all working solidly.

Decos are not Easymesh. Most Mesh systems intended from the ground up are proprietary and tested with each other extensively. Hence why TP-Link has a complete chart of what works with what and certifies that with their firmware. I'm sure the other brands have a similar approach.

So take one for the team and tell us how it works out!

Oh and as a bonus research point that i came across from another recent thread. If you need to experiment with the Last powerline standard available in the world for cheap. https://nexuslinkusa.com/product/gpl-2000pt-kit/ Uses the latest G.hn revision. Not the old Homeplug standard you attempted in the past.

 

[Lord Evermore]

I'm out of houses and family members to experiment on as i've gotten them all working solidly.

Since when does "it's working perfectly fine" mean things don't need to be changed?

 

[Andrewcw]

Since when does "it's working perfectly fine" mean things don't need to be changed?

When the improvement falls into the technical realms of https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dick-measuring_contest

 

[yd]

Just an update....

Went with a TP Link BE800. The 900 was a decent slug more cash but wasn't showing better numbers. The GE800 was very tempting and sliiiiightly better numbers but I didn't want something running with an internal fan; the BE800 has no moving parts.

Results, yea, definitely better.

Roof went from essentially 0-5mb/s to 60mb/s. One floor up went from about 50mb/s to 100mb/s. Downstairs stayed about the same at around 40-60mb/s - I gather signal travels better up than down. No longer need an extender on the roof, not even going to bother looking into one now and trying to mesh stuff up hehe.

tldr, TP Link BE800 works well, dick is longer

edit - as expected, busted some network shares while some magically still work. I can see my notebook from my desktop, I know what I use to log onto said notebook with which password...do you think I can access the drive, nope. But I can easily access the desktop from that notebook even though the reserved IP address changed. 2024, still can't share access to drives on remote devices in any logical way.

 

[Arty50]

As they work more enterprise-y versus your common consumer/home mesh, these units need Ethernet/POE back to the controller switch that manages them. However, hand-offs between units are seamless, making it look like one big wireless network (like mesh). As you literally noted you have wired runs or are at least planning wired runs, this would fit in neatly with that configuration. They also have pretty solid QOS and network analysis tools with the Dream Machine that manages the units/network. It unfortunately appears that the only units they they still actively sell that have a pass-through port would be the older AC Pro series of AP's. You would get no benefit going that route as it is WiFi5 for those (much like the Orbi RBS50's) and not 6, 6E, or 7. Going this route with the U6 or U7 series would put what you have with existing devices as going Wireless only, but with high-throughput/stability (allowing for decent gaming, streaming, video conferences, etc). If the wiring is in open areas (such as a basement/open ceiling or crawlspace), running another wire in parallel to what you already have would then add that ability to do a separate wired device or go to a small wired switch to serve multiple devices in that locations.

Now, the Deco's- depending on the model, some have pass-through ports, are still consumer mesh to talk to each other, and even support fiber connections (BE85 and BE95 model packs). For those capabilities, be prepared to drop about $1500 for a 3 pack. If more units are needed, it will push $2k or so. The Deco software has a bunch of options in it- some works great, others functions you can flip a coin on, but that's the world of consumer.

One correction, the UniFi APs will wirelessly mesh with each other. Of course, you'll need to have at least one AP wired up to a router or get one of their routers/gateways with built-in WiFi.

 

[Lord Evermore]

edit - as expected, busted some network shares while some magically still work. I can see my notebook from my desktop, I know what I use to log onto said notebook with which password...do you think I can access the drive, nope. But I can easily access the desktop from that notebook even though the reserved IP address changed. 2024, still can't share access to drives on remote devices in any logical way.

Check your Credential Manager for saved accounts on both. It really shouldn't matter if the IP changed, but you never know, and that's a common source of problems like that. But then also just verify the "Private/Public" network types on both sides, particularly the notebook, and that all of the sharing features are enabled. Anytime there are network changes, Windows freaks out, and I usually end up having to disable all the sharing then browse in Networking again so it prompts for enabling them again. The desktop may not have detected a "network change" because it's wired (I assume) but mobile devices would be seeing a whole new physical network.

 

[yd]

Check your Credential Manager for saved accounts on both. It really shouldn't matter if the IP changed, but you never know, and that's a common source of problems like that. But then also just verify the "Private/Public" network types on both sides, particularly the notebook, and that all of the sharing features are enabled. Anytime there are network changes, Windows freaks out, and I usually end up having to disable all the sharing then browse in Networking again so it prompts for enabling them again. The desktop may not have detected a "network change" because it's wired (I assume) but mobile devices would be seeing a whole new physical network.

There really should just be a feature somewhere - Windows side, router side - that lets you right click on a device on the network and click 'share drives', done and dusted once a prompt on the other computer agrees.

 

[Lord Evermore]

There really should just be a feature somewhere - Windows side, router side - that lets you right click on a device on the network and click 'share drives', done and dusted once a prompt on the other computer agrees.

Well, that's pretty close to the way it's supposed to work just kind of in reverse. You tell your computer "share this folder", and any other machine on the network can try to access it. You can share the whole drive if you want, but rarely would you want to do that (imagine having to dig through the entire directory tree of a remote computer to get to a common folder, or giving others access to private folders). Needing a username and password is the "prompt to agree" or you can just accept connections from any machine with no password, but in most places that need to share files it's a per-person thing and not per-machine. You'd need to do it your way PLUS the way it already works, for not much gain. The big issue is simply that Microsoft can't make it work PROPERLY even the way it's already supposed to because they made networking so convoluted.

 

[yd]

Well, that's pretty close to the way it's supposed to work just kind of in reverse. You tell your computer "share this folder", and any other machine on the network can try to access it. You can share the whole drive if you want, but rarely would you want to do that (imagine having to dig through the entire directory tree of a remote computer to get to a common folder, or giving others access to private folders). Needing a username and password is the "prompt to agree" or you can just accept connections from any machine with no password, but in most places that need to share files it's a per-person thing and not per-machine. You'd need to do it your way PLUS the way it already works, for not much gain. The big issue is simply that Microsoft can't make it work PROPERLY even the way it's already supposed to because they made networking so convoluted.

Problem is, it just seems to always bork username/password hand shakes even when I have the username and password. It seems very random.

 

[wallinbl]

Instead of creating a new thread I thought I'd post in here as it's most relevant to my situation.

I'm looking to replace an Orbi RBR50 + RBS50 set up that has been solid for years but recently is starting to show some signs of giving up (mainly satellites just dropping off and having a hard time re-connecting - including the wired ones).

Otherwise it seems like the TP-Link Deco or Asus ZenWifi offerings are the ones recommended by most. Is that the consensus here? I'm not considering eero because I don't trust the Google ecosystem.

I switched from the Orbi setup to TPLink Deco, and I've been mostly miserable. My iPhone very frequently can't talk to the WiFi. My Windows laptop will have a problem about once a day that the only resolution seems to be turn off WiFi, count to 10, turn it back on. My Apple laptop constantly has problems with the WiFi.

My iPad is fine. My wife's iPad and phone are fine. My daughter's iPhone has problems. Our AppleTV, LG TV, and Roku TV are always fine. My wife's Macbook is always fine. In the course of typing this, one of my six Sonos speakers has decided it can't talk to the WiFi anymore.

There don't appear to be a lot of troubleshooting tools or options because we're now in the era of "it just works" (except when it doesn't). I turned off 6G, but that didn't help much. I've played with various settings on fast roaming and beamforming, but those haven't fixed it either.

 

[continuum]

I switched from the Orbi setup to TPLink Deco, and I've been mostly miserable.

Which model TP-Link Deco?

(and as far as I can tell you have the worst luck with both cars and electronics )

 

[Kyuu]

I switched from the Orbi setup to TPLink Deco, and I've been mostly miserable.

Don't say that. I just bought two TP-Link X50-POE WAPs for my new place.

 

[Arty50]

Ugh, sorry for your troubles. My BE65 Pros have been rock solid. The reviews on some of the more advanced WiFi 7 units have been less than stellar though.

 

[wallinbl]

Which model TP-Link Deco?

(and as far as I can tell you have the worst luck with both cars and electronics )

XE75 Pro

 

[Andrewcw]

Don't say that. I just bought two TP-Link X50-POE WAPs for my new place.

From what i'm reading the XE75 seems to be a lemon. The X50 POE Outdoor sound like they're working at the relative's i had them install them at. However the X50 has two models for whatever reason they decided to call them the same but the other are Hockey Pucks.

 

[Kyuu]

From what i'm reading the XE75 seems to be a lemon. The X50 POE Outdoor sound like they're working at the relative's i had them install them at. However the X50 has two models for whatever reason they decided to call them the same but the other are Hockey Pucks.

Yes mine are the "hockey pucks", not the outdoor.

 

[wallinbl]

From what i'm reading the XE75 seems to be a lemon. The X50 POE Outdoor sound like they're working at the relative's i had them install them at. However the X50 has two models for whatever reason they decided to call them the same but the other are Hockey Pucks.

When I google what I'm experiencing, there are tons of threads and no resolution. Either TPLink doesn't care, or can't fix it.

 

[Paladin]

I switched from the Orbi setup to TPLink Deco, and I've been mostly miserable. My iPhone very frequently can't talk to the WiFi. My Windows laptop will have a problem about once a day that the only resolution seems to be turn off WiFi, count to 10, turn it back on. My Apple laptop constantly has problems with the WiFi.

My iPad is fine. My wife's iPad and phone are fine. My daughter's iPhone has problems. Our AppleTV, LG TV, and Roku TV are always fine. My wife's Macbook is always fine. In the course of typing this, one of my six Sonos speakers has decided it can't talk to the WiFi anymore.

There don't appear to be a lot of troubleshooting tools or options because we're now in the era of "it just works" (except when it doesn't). I turned off 6G, but that didn't help much. I've played with various settings on fast roaming and beamforming, but those haven't fixed it either.

Does it let you set channel width? It might hide it as some kind of bandwidth or performance/optimization term but basically the higher channel width you use, the more likely you are to step on channels already in use by others (or your own stuff) and to have issues.

 

[wallinbl]

Does it let you set channel width? It might hide it as some kind of bandwidth or performance/optimization term but basically the higher channel width you use, the more likely you are to step on channels already in use by others (or your own stuff) and to have issues.

There is a toggle between 160 and 80. I just bumped it down to 80, which it warned heavily against doing. We'll see how it goes. I've tried the various settings for fast roaming, beamforming, etc. Turning off beamforming kicks all the Sonos devices off and they can't seem to get back on.

 

[Paladin]

There is a toggle between 160 and 80. I just bumped it down to 80, which it warned heavily against doing. We'll see how it goes. I've tried the various settings for fast roaming, beamforming, etc. Turning off beamforming kicks all the Sonos devices off and they can't seem to get back on.

That's surprising. 80 is usually the default in most systems I have seen but maybe that has changed with the new stuff (6ghz would definitely benefit from the higher width). Hopefully that helps.

Beamforming should be an optimization, not a requirement and it interacting with Sonos gear is surprising and also not surprising. It shouldn't be a problem to change that setting and it should work better with it enabled but Sonos should basically not care unless it is doing something very odd. At most I can imagine Sonos stuff needing a reboot after you turn it off. But you really should not have to disable beamforming unless you have a very high number of devices. Like 50 or more or something.

 

[Andrewcw]

It just looks like the x75 and x75 pro both have firmware issues. If you're dead set on keeping the units i'd really start raising a stink on the TP-Link Forums.

I'm guessing the 160 and 80 is specific to your models as an attempt to figure out what's going on. As no other Deco model i've run into even has that an an option.

 

[Arty50]

I'm overjoyed by the latest news about TP-Link possibly getting axed from being able to sell products in the US.

If this happens, I'll take comfort in the knowledge that our government will give us money to replace our TP-Link gear with something that's not banned...HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

 

[chalex]

just as another anecdote I upgraded to the ~$250 3 x BE25 TP-Link Deco and it's been mostly fine.

Sometimes one of the two non-main decos drops off the network for some reason but the coverage is already much better than my previous one-wifi-extender setup.

Main thing I learned was to configure the exact same SSID and password so I didn't have to change anything on any client devices!

 

[eisa01]

I'm considering to upgrade my Ubiquiti Amplifi HD wifi router as I don't get reliable whole home coverage in my new apartment
It is 100 square meters (~1000 sq ft), L shaped, with the router near the bend

I've been very satisfied with it in my old apartment, it handled some wifi panel heaters that on other routers require separate 2.4 GHz SSID without issues

Do I need mesh or would a modern router be sufficient?
FYI in the furthermost room my wifi scale does not have reception, but a Zigbee device does.

I'd considered the OpenWRT One, but annoyingly it has only one LAN port so I'd need to get a switch - I'm trying to minimize the number of devices in the closet. Ubiquiti Amplifi Alien that says it has 280 sq m coverage is now more reasonably priced, but it's also three years old and out of stock on their website, so maybe they're preparing an update?

edit: If a single modern router is sufficent, I'm considering the Gl.Inet Flint 2 that can run OpenWRT

 

[eisa01]

double post

 

[Paladin]

Range is almost entirely dependent on the physical construction and contents of the location in question. No one can provide a meaningful prediction of how much effective range any device might actually provide in your home without actually testing the equipment. The best thing you can do is make sure the router is placed in the middle of the area you want covered and then remove any obstacles that might block the signal. If it still doesn't work well, you can add a second access point with a cable uplink (mesh or traditional standalone access point).

 

[eisa01]

Thanks, but do newer routers generally have more range? I see the Alien is speced at 3000 sq ft, while the Amplif HD lists 1500 sq ft?

Now it seems like people are not happy with the Alien on its Facebook group, so shelving that idea...

 

[Paladin]

Thanks, but do newer routers generally have more range? I see the Alien is speced at 3000 sq ft, while the Amplif HD lists 1500 sq ft?

Now it seems like people are not happy with the Alien on its Facebook group, so shelving that idea...

No, range is a matter of physical construction of the antennae and the location where the equipment is located (the router and the client device locations). Newer access points also tend to use 5 and 6 ghz radios (they still have 2.4 ghz but the improved speed largely comes in the higher frequency ranges) and those high frequency radios have much worse range and ability to penetrate any physical barrier (rock/cement, walls, furniture, appliances, people, beds, glass windows, anything like damp soil, metal/wires, etc.) compared to 2.4 ghz. So a newer access point might provide worse coverage than an older one that had good quality antenna design.

Then there is the issue of the client devices. Changing the AP doesn't do anything to change the actual weak point in a wifi connection: the client device. Usually the client device (phone, tablet, laptop) has a much smaller antenna and limited transmit power because it is designed to run on a battery. That limitation can mean that your device might receive the signal from the AP/router well enough, but it can't send a signal back at a strong enough level to actually reach the access point reliably so performance will still be terrible.

That's why I recommend getting an access point/router you can try and return if it doesn't help but only if your current router/access point is old (more than 3 years or so) or it was low quality/cheap to start with. Basically if your router has 2 or fewer antenna visible (or any are broken) then a new router might help or it might do nothing. If your router is a G type wifi design or older, then a new AC or AX router might help if it is not the cheap model range. Or it might do nothing to improve range.

First step though is to try to move your current router a bit closer to where you have a dead zone, or check to make sure there is nothing blocking the signal, particularly anything metal or heavy material like brick or metal mesh, wires, etc. in between the router and your devices. And always make sure the router is not directly below where you want devices to be used. The signal pattern radiates out in a flat donut shape around the router, not above or below it (unless it is a special ceiling mount router/AP).

 

[eisa01]

Hm... I wonder if it may be simplest to try to get another Amplifi HD unit for cheap, as the system supports mesh. Then I don't need to set any devices up again

 

[Paladin]

Hm... I wonder if it may be simplest to try to get another Amplifi HD unit for cheap, as the system supports mesh. Then I don't need to set any devices up again

If that is what it is designed for then yeah definitely. That should make a good improvement. It's already an AC capable router so adding another makes more sense than starting over, especially if you are happy with the main one other than coverage. Just put another one fairly close to the area you want and hopefully it will cover everything you need.

 

[eisa01]

It worked great! Got a used one for ~30 USD and set up mesh in 2 min
I also found out that the inner L-shape wall is concrete, so no wonder the signal doesn't propogate too far in the troublesome direction

 

[jhodge]

the Eero devices are discounted (owned by Amazon and they get great discounts every time Amazon has a prime day sale). Their wifi7 stuff is too expensive but their Pro 6E is pretty good when there is no wired backhaul. not as configurable but OTOH it tends to just work after setup which is simple.

I've installed a few Eero kits, including one last week, and they're all been trouble-free. One of those was in bridge mode behind a dedicated router and firewall and worked well in that config, also. It's not the cheapest option, but really solid IME.

 

[eas]

Not impressed with the used Eero 6 Pros (triband) I got.

They should have ~50% more client bandwidth and 2x the wireless backhaul bandwidth of the 2-stream triband 802.11ac Linksys units running OpenWRT that I was using.

Speeds over the mesh are significantly slower and often highly asymmetrical when tested with iperf3. Speeds between a WiFi 6 client and the wired gateway Eero more or less meet expectations, so it seems that the backhaul is the problem.

There is a firmware update pending. If that doesn't fix things I'm going to sell these and get something better.