Two <em>WoT</em> book readers dive back into Amazon's increasingly divergent adaptation.
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The Wheel of Time is back for season three, and so are our weekly recaps
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This was not the first post, but it was a first post.
I refreshed the AT front page even more than usual yesterday waiting for this drop. Glad to have y'all back!
I refreshed the AT front page even more than usual yesterday waiting for this drop. Glad to have y'all back!
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For some reason I was really looking forward to this, even listened to the audiobooks for Shadow Rising and Fires of Heaven to refresh my memory in preparation. That might have been a mistake, because I bounced hard after that recap of seasons 1 and 2 at the beginning reminded me of all the crap. I can't fathom why I thought of giving this show another chance. Maybe it was the huge gap?
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There were a few changes that got a raised eyebrow from me, but I mostly have faith they can pull it off, or see why they did it for structural reasons or whatever. The one thing I did not care for at all was the Morgase cold open.
Pretty much the rest of the first 3 eps I was entirely on board. I am so stoked that in less than a week we'll finally get to see the episode I've been waiting for for years. Basically every full season review I've seen says it's the best of the season and does the book justice.
Pretty much the rest of the first 3 eps I was entirely on board. I am so stoked that in less than a week we'll finally get to see the episode I've been waiting for for years. Basically every full season review I've seen says it's the best of the season and does the book justice.
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Welcome back!
For the most part, I'm totally on board with the first three episodes.
Two minor quibbles — Moiraine and Lan's deal with Lanfear where they just sit back and listen to the carnage and near-death experiences of deadly mirror reflections, living axes and what not. I know Moraine's ethics and good vs bad nature was ambiguous for much of the books, but this seemed to swing the pendulum too far. But maybe it was just a quick way to show this subtlety on screen?
The other quibble was the boys' night out which you two seemed to find endearing. Immediately after a lecture from Moraine about how dangerous it was, how they should hide their presence etc., they're out on the town loudly proclaiming who they are etc. And all seemingly with little to no consequences.
I agree that I wish the sets and props match the scale and grandeur of the physical locations which, so far, have been incredible, but we've been spoilt by the likes of GoT and its ridiculous per-episode budgets.
For the most part, I'm totally on board with the first three episodes.
Two minor quibbles — Moiraine and Lan's deal with Lanfear where they just sit back and listen to the carnage and near-death experiences of deadly mirror reflections, living axes and what not. I know Moraine's ethics and good vs bad nature was ambiguous for much of the books, but this seemed to swing the pendulum too far. But maybe it was just a quick way to show this subtlety on screen?
The other quibble was the boys' night out which you two seemed to find endearing. Immediately after a lecture from Moraine about how dangerous it was, how they should hide their presence etc., they're out on the town loudly proclaiming who they are etc. And all seemingly with little to no consequences.
I agree that I wish the sets and props match the scale and grandeur of the physical locations which, so far, have been incredible, but we've been spoilt by the likes of GoT and its ridiculous per-episode budgets.
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Cancelled prime due to America's bout of boot licking. May pirate season 3, we'll see.
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I don’t know much about this show, so forgive my ignorance… but I can’t help but be bothered by the school project level quality that I see in these still-frames. Does this scream “fantasy” to anyone? All I see is two people standing in a field.
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The first episode of season 3 starts off with like 14 straight minutes of the most wizardy wizard battle I've ever seen on TV.
Like fireballs and lightning and buzzsaws made of air.
Hell the first episode of the whole series also has an extended battle against gnarly monsters with extended use of magic (though the magic VFX weren't quite as good in the first season as they were in subsequent).
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I do agree with the sentiment that everyone else seems to be getting more screen time and character development than Rand himself, and isn't he supposed to be the main character? It feels like he's increasingly being relegated to a plot device here.
Another quibble is, well, things still feel like they are progressing so slowly. We are in the third season, and I hardly feel any sense of urgency. Honestly, I don't even know what the stakes are anymore, when it seems like everybody is just off doing their own business.
Another quibble is, well, things still feel like they are progressing so slowly. We are in the third season, and I hardly feel any sense of urgency. Honestly, I don't even know what the stakes are anymore, when it seems like everybody is just off doing their own business.
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One of the themes of the whole book series is that he's not the main character. There's no such thing. Everybody matters.
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Like Lee said, that happens to him in the books as well "so at least there is symmetry" /zathras. But part of that is that Rand is not the sole main character. It is a large ensemble cast. And more than that, one of the themes is that it's not just his story - it's all of their story. Not just his, or the Emond's Field Five, or those they get entangled with. Everyone's.
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Though in fairness, in the story, Rand (and Perrin and Mat and Egwene and Nynaeve, and others) are literally plot devices in the setting canon. Ta'veren are people chosen by the Wheel to be focal points of the Pattern so that events can take the shape it needs to. Events happen around them in particular ways because the Wheel has a story it's trying to tell with people's lives. Them struggling with free will vs fate is a whole big thing.
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Zathras not knowing times. Zathras not knowing wheels. This....this is wrong show.
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Agree and many people (myself included) believe there were TOO MANY books in the series. Several in the middle seemed like filler. Many CHAPTERS feel like filler with describing the same thing we’ve read described in excruciating detail with only slight differences.
I love the series and read the whole thing, but it would of been a much stronger series at 6-7 books.
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Pretty much.
She didn’t go this far to manipulate people into doing what she wanted in-book, but she definitely pissed everyone off with her meddling.
They have a real run-time issue. Got had more episodes per season, more than 8 seasons, etc. so they got to summarize. Season 1 Stepping is a really good example. To make Jaeine enjoying her warder’s deaths properly creepy they had to run something like Steppin before this season, and that subplot just isn’t in the first couple books…
The book characters weren’t exactly obeying Moirraine at this point either. Even Perrin resists all kinds of orders.
Hell, this apparently happened after the BA nuked the Tower so I wouldn’t be worried about the Reds either…
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In the books at least, the 3 main boys and 3 main girls seem to get overall about the same amount of point-of-view time, with it regularly happening that 1 or 2 of the big six may sit most of a book out (such as Rand in for most of book 3).
In addition, there is a huge pantheon of secondary characters that get regular book pages-- probably in total nearly 1/2 as much as the big six. Beyond that there is a large array of tertiary characters who also get occasional point-of-view time. Not nearly so much as the primary and secondary, but usually in a way that adds flavor and variety and made me enjoy reading the tertiary scenes a lot.
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Still 100% free of braid-tugging, so I'm still in...
I know it disappoints a lot of WoT fans but I, and I consider myself a big fan, still enjoy it immensely and just think of it as "inspired by", instead of expecting a faithful conversion to the screen.
I know it disappoints a lot of WoT fans but I, and I consider myself a big fan, still enjoy it immensely and just think of it as "inspired by", instead of expecting a faithful conversion to the screen.
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This is more just the stills selected by Ars for their article. They've been marketing the hell out of this season. The press site has stills with magic front and center. The character posters for both solo and groups are very fantasy coded. The trailer and first episode sneak peek had tons of magic and stuff as well.
https://press.amazonmgmstudios.com/us/en/original-series/wheel-of-time/3
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Lol, this was the first "First" post I've read in more than a decade that I was ok with and upvoted
Yeahhh, I keep giving it more chances because I love these books, but after watching the 10 minutes of early release season 3 preview I strongly recommended a friend of mine who was WoT-Curious to just read the books first if not alone, so the show wouldn't taint like the Taint on Saidin the characters and settings and objects and how things work and feel and look in her mind.
I still hope it's successful enough to get to the finish line, it has its actually quite good moments in between some cringe ones, and season 2 was on the right path and getting better than season 1.
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I get why you're downvoted but honestly this was a very big hurdle for me getting into the show.
It was just characters standing around in front of a virtual set ("The Volume"). It felt very lazy, like some Amazon exec saw YouTube videos about The Mandalorian and figured it was a holy grail for avoiding set building and labor costs and just went way overboard with it.
Which is a shame because I was hoping the show might be a quick and fun way to be exposed to the fiction that many people seem to love. I frankly don't have the time and energy to read every good fantasy series and so inevitably I just fall back on screen adaptations.
Sucks when they seem to go the route of, "only hardcore fans will watch this, so who cares if it's actually enthralling or not." Or at least that's what it feels like.
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This is factually false. Most of the show was shot in camera, in physical locations and sets, which were extended in CG, but stuff around the actual actors was real. Like, the village in S1E1 was fully built and then literally burned down and then rebuilt for season 3.
edit: The last 2 episodes of season 1 had more CG locations and extensions due to the fact that COVID restrictions fucked all their access to many scouted locations and changed rules for safe work proximity meant they had to change a whole bunch of blocking as well.
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I know covid screwed up a lot of the major battle scenes in season one, but as a book reader some of the changes really turned me off.
Never actually gave second season a chance since I was busy with other shows at the time.
Did they get back in line with showing the general themes and prop up the pov characters properly? Or just continue with the TV trend of added inconsequential romance triangles and giving whoever screen tests best additional storylines?
Never actually gave second season a chance since I was busy with other shows at the time.
Did they get back in line with showing the general themes and prop up the pov characters properly? Or just continue with the TV trend of added inconsequential romance triangles and giving whoever screen tests best additional storylines?
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I believe you entirely. I should correct myself and stress that it feels this way, I have fuckall technical information on how it was actually made.
However I also haven't taken a look at the later seasons, so I'll certainly reserve judgement.
To be clear I was not trying to shit on the show, the fiction, or the hard work put in by the actors and production crew. Just stating my disappointment with how Amazon runs some of its shows.
Edit: I believe one scene in particular that I may be thinking of was actually from Rings of Power. That was possibly the Volume feeling one I was thinking of. Now if you tell me that Rings of Power has no virtual sets, either...well, oof. I'd feel bad for the production crew that wasn't given adequate time to do a good job.
At the end of the day basically any critique of visual effects, set design, costumes, poor stunt choreography, is due to a lack of time given to the crew. Remember the awful ending fight scene in Black Panther? Yeah, they hate it, too
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Is there an article on Ars that's a review of the show and whether it's worth watching? For what it's worth, I like fantasy shows, did read Wheel of Time as a kid / young adult, but not the Sanderson books. I have mixed feelings about it now given how incredibly gendered it is.
I don't particularly want to read a recap unless I know whether the show is actually any good.
I don't particularly want to read a recap unless I know whether the show is actually any good.
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Robert Jordan has been gone a long time now. I take the approach that I will never get to see this beloved story on screen after this production. The series is getting older all the time and nobody is going to try this again. I forgive almost all of the divergence from the books and other issues just to live in this world again for a little while.
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IMO it absolutely is worth watching. The gendered aspect is not entirely gone. The gender binary, yin-yang etc is sort of built-in and fully removing is probably impossible, but they gloss over a lot of that as much as they absolutely can. There's a lot more women in traditionally masculine roles than the books had. The books certainly had that in many places but it was usually restricted to certain cultures, and many of the more default European style cultures that a lot of the story was set in like Andor, Cairhien, Illian, etc were still very traditional. The show has a lot more female guards in Andor and Tar Valon etc. The first season they aren't even sure if the Dragon would be a man or a woman.
And the gender politics is much better than in the books.
But it is still very gendered. Though I wouldn't be surprised if the writers found some way to modernize even that somewhat over time.
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The audio books by Michael Kramer and Kate Reading are amazingly done, and I actually didn't mind those middle slogs when listening that way.
Admittedly I was also working on my own on afternoons doing 10h shifts at the time too.
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I watched a couple of episodes and that was all I could handle, BORING!
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General consensus is non-book readers seem to like the show and book readers are split. For some, changes are the touch of the Dark One himself and others see the show as a different turning of the Wheel that rhymes with the original- similar but not 1:1.
I have friends that are die hard fans of the books who won't give it the time of day. I'm enjoying it for what it is and glad to see the quality is improving each season. Hope to get my friends on board in time.
I have friends that are die hard fans of the books who won't give it the time of day. I'm enjoying it for what it is and glad to see the quality is improving each season. Hope to get my friends on board in time.
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Started reading WoT in 1990. Are the gendered issues revolving around Sanderson's work on the series? And why is this aspect so focused upon? Yes I'm 'just asking questions' because I don't see the issue/s.
I just remember pillow friends, trans forsaken, and polyamory from the book series.
I just remember pillow friends, trans forsaken, and polyamory from the book series.
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Egwene’s season two arc was great. Not quite wjhat Jordan did
Non readers tend to like it more than readers because they aren’t going in with elaborate expectations about their favorite scene. The early seasons were kinda shafted for various reasons. Covid hit after episode 6 of season one filmed and their Mat ghosted them, so Mat scenes had to be given to somebody who did show up, then they couldn’t have trollocs because too many people on set, then in the middle of filming the epic defense of Fal Dara they were informed everyone always had to be socially distanced… Season two is good, but not great. The marketing was shit because it came out during the strike.
Magic is still gendered. The character arcs don’t change, but the characters have been aged up and act like 20-somethings. This means you don’t get people getting into fights and declaring all men/women suck.
The biggest change is Moirraine/Siuan become a love story for the ages because if you hire Sophie Okenedo and Rosamund Pike that’s just what you do. Also, the villains are super interesting. Every time Natasha O’Keefe’s Lanfear is on screen I go ”it would only last two weeks, but it would be a hell of a two weeks, but she’d kill me, but it might be worth it, but she’s really good at torture, but watch her move…”
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O'Keefe in the BTS stuff is great because she's all kind and bubbly and then just really really enjoys playing an evil camp villain with a dial that only goes from 9 to 11
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Are people actually upset that male and females can't see each others weaves?
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I'm a book reader and unlike some others I'm enjoying the series. Really have liked season 3 so far. But I didn't go into this thinking they could do an exact copy. There is no way.
Mat seems more like the Mat from the books in Season 3. Of course it is a bit later in the series that his character gets the most interesting, but you can start to see it.
Mat seems more like the Mat from the books in Season 3. Of course it is a bit later in the series that his character gets the most interesting, but you can start to see it.
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Mostly they’re mad that the characters internal monologue is about how the other gender is an alien species that is incapable of rational thought…
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Well to be fair, there are also a ton of people who have problems with the fact that magic is gendered and really only has a system defined that conforms to the gender binary. If someone's experience of gender is not that, then I can see how it can definitely be a big turn off.
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Apart from the points others have already made about Rand being merely one of many 'main characters', I'm kinda glad he's not front and centre all the time.
To me, Stradowski is by far the weakest actor on the show — at least amongst the major players. I'm not sure how/why that is – I can't imagine it's a lack of acting chops... why would they cast him then?
There has been some improvement over the course of the series, but compared to Robins and Madden (especially), there's been far too little of him growing into the character.
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The books also had a lot of ways in which the magic itself lined up with gender stereotypes. The male half was wild and had to be dominated. The female half was calm and had to be submitted to. Men were stronger on average in the power and women were more dextrous. There were complex rules about the number of men and women that could link and how and who was in control when the numbers were x and y etc. Men could feel if women were holding the power but women couldn't feel the same for men.
Cats loved women channelers and hated males. Vice versa for dogs with men. (Not a joke)
And almost none of it mattered at all.
The not being able to see other genders weaves is basically the only thing that consistently mattered.
The differences in strength and skill etc were irrelevant because basically every character we meet in the story of any importance is an outlier of some sort.
The linking rules have basically one instance in which it matters to story.
For all the rest it was simply gendered to be gendered.
Cats loved women channelers and hated males. Vice versa for dogs with men. (Not a joke)
And almost none of it mattered at all.
The not being able to see other genders weaves is basically the only thing that consistently mattered.
The differences in strength and skill etc were irrelevant because basically every character we meet in the story of any importance is an outlier of some sort.
The linking rules have basically one instance in which it matters to story.
For all the rest it was simply gendered to be gendered.
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