The Perpetual Firearms Thread

[von Chaps]

Actually came to this thread to mention for those who haven't seen it, the Fat Electrician put together an extensive, long-format, well researched Carlos Hathcock video which includes a field test replicating the famed and much doubted "through the scope" sniper shot, with a good technical takedown of prior replication attempts (Mythbusters in particular).

Thanks very much for posting that. A very good story and engagingly told. Not a channel I've come across before.

I had heard some parts before, but not all pieced together and I don't think I realised all the events were attributable to the same person. TIL.

 

[Tom the Melaniephile]

Thanks very much for posting that. A very good story and engagingly told. Not a channel I've come across before.

I had heard some parts before, but not all pieced together and I don't think I realised all the events were attributable to the same person. TIL.

Happy to share! I had some general familiarity with Hathcock, but learned a lot and had never seen it all really put together so well.

He's a really good storyteller, primarily focused on military-related things.

The videos from a couple of years ago from when he was just getting started are iffier. Newer stuff is excellent.

I can also recommend the Forgotten Weapons channel. Completely different presentation style, focus is firearms.

 

[invertedpanda]

One thing I've been finding interesting is how ammo prices are starting to become comparable between 223/308/6.5CM.. Especially when considering higher-quality (match or near-match) ammo costs.

If I get lucky and happen on the money in the near future, I think I'd build a 308 bolt rifle now rather than 223 (6.5CM is still a pass for me given barrel life). Howa 1500 barreled actions are pretty affordable.

 

[kperrier]

Yeah, The Fat Electrician is awesome. the wife and I eagerly sit down to watch each new video.

 

[Boskone]

While visiting my parents, I'd intended to do some shooting on dad's range.

Instead they got half their annual total rainfall in the last about 4 days. I can barely get down the road, much less across the pasture to the range.

Mom's pretty tolerant of gunfire around the house, but I think strings from a 6.5 Creedmoor from the porch would be too far.

 

[Boskone]

One thing I've been finding interesting is how ammo prices are starting to become comparable between 223/308/6.5CM.. Especially when considering higher-quality (match or near-match) ammo costs.

If I get lucky and happen on the money in the near future, I think I'd build a 308 bolt rifle now rather than 223 (6.5CM is still a pass for me given barrel life). Howa 1500 barreled actions are pretty affordable.

Give 6mm ARC a gander. It's pretty new, but looks promising: flat-shooting, long range, moderate recoil, and I think 3k+ round barrel life.

Dad's got two (bolt and AR), and likes it.

Not sure about bullet pricing offhand, though.

 

[invertedpanda]

Give 6mm ARC a gander. It's pretty new, but looks promising: flat-shooting, long range, moderate recoil, and I think 3k+ round barrel life.

Dad's got two (bolt and AR), and likes it.

Not sure about bullet pricing offhand, though.

It's quite a bit more expensive ($1 per round on the cheap end, while I can do 308 for as little as $0.75/rnd on the cheap.. not to mention bulk ammo availability).. And with 308, you're looking at 10k rounds minimum on barrel life typically. The idea is to build a rifle that'll make it through the rest of my life.. If I shoot 200-400 rounds a year, in 10 years (I hope to be alive at least that much longer) that 6mm ARC will need to have a barrel swap, while the 308 won't even be halfway there.

Also, 308 is one of those rounds that will always have high-availability; if we ever see another ammo shortage, 308 should still be gettable without camping out on ammoseek like it was Ticketmaster.

Additionally, I'm not looking for "the best cartridge for long range"; I'm looking for versatility, and challenge. I don't want something that's going to take all the work away from me; that's one reason why I love shooting 22LR.. You really have to work to get good at shooting it at longer ranges.

The 308 rifle build will use a 16.25" barrel, and the end-goal on the build is to basically be a "little bit of everything" rifle. Something light, yet reasonably accurate at distance, maneuverable should I finally gain enough mobility to do competitions, and useful in a SHTF situation (not that I ever expect to ever need a SHTF rifle, of course). I'll be sticking the action into a KRG X-ray chassis, eventually adding an enclosed fore-end as well.

The original idea for said rifle was something semi-auto, but in IL the only SA options are a Ruger Mini-14 with limited modability (no chassis), or one of the handful of makers who build IL-compliant SA rifles (that are much higher priced than I'd like; The total cost of this build will be less than one of those with comparable specs).

 

[Alyeska]

Paul Harrell passed away today. May he Rest in Peace.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-gZuFcEu0E

 

[invertedpanda]

Woke up this morning and saw it. Definitely not going to be the same YT without him.

 

[Vince-RA]

That is a bummer indeed, I found his videos thanks to this thread and enjoyed them significantly more than any other firearm-related YouTuber. RIP, Paul.

 

[drogin]

It's quite a bit more expensive ($1 per round on the cheap end, while I can do 308 for as little as $0.75/rnd on the cheap.. not to mention bulk ammo availability).. And with 308, you're looking at 10k rounds minimum on barrel life typically. The idea is to build a rifle that'll make it through the rest of my life.. If I shoot 200-400 rounds a year, in 10 years (I hope to be alive at least that much longer) that 6mm ARC will need to have a barrel swap, while the 308 won't even be halfway there.

Also, 308 is one of those rounds that will always have high-availability; if we ever see another ammo shortage, 308 should still be gettable without camping out on ammoseek like it was Ticketmaster.

Additionally, I'm not looking for "the best cartridge for long range"; I'm looking for versatility, and challenge. I don't want something that's going to take all the work away from me; that's one reason why I love shooting 22LR.. You really have to work to get good at shooting it at longer ranges.

The 308 rifle build will use a 16.25" barrel, and the end-goal on the build is to basically be a "little bit of everything" rifle. Something light, yet reasonably accurate at distance, maneuverable should I finally gain enough mobility to do competitions, and useful in a SHTF situation (not that I ever expect to ever need a SHTF rifle, of course). I'll be sticking the action into a KRG X-ray chassis, eventually adding an enclosed fore-end as well.

The original idea for said rifle was something semi-auto, but in IL the only SA options are a Ruger Mini-14 with limited modability (no chassis), or one of the handful of makers who build IL-compliant SA rifles (that are much higher priced than I'd like; The total cost of this build will be less than one of those with comparable specs).

I still have plans to sell my Ruger Gunsite Scout and get the 16.1” Ruger American Gen2. Drop it in an MDT chassis.

I shoot 308 all the time. It’s a good cartridge for all the reasons you already listed. Very versatile.

I keep the zero on my scout rifle based on federal hydro shock. But I have the settings I need for 175gr sierra match kings and bulk M80 ball.

I tend to shoot the m80 most of the time just due to availability and cost.

I like my Gunsite Scout, but it’s a left-handed model, so more awkward to shoot since the Great Eye Dominance Shift of a few years ago.

 

[invertedpanda]

In my wishlist build for a multi-role bolt action rifle, I officially found my chassis:

https://abarms.com/product/modx-gen-iii-modular-rifle-system-howa-1500-sa-black/
I'll end up using some rings to give it a 20 MOA cant since the rail is 0 MOA, but this has every feature I want in a chassis, and is extremely customizable while also being cheaper than the previous plans (KRG Bravo or X-Ray with an enclosed forend).

 

[Boskone]

And here I'm thinking of moving my 6.5CM to a stock, partly over weight and mostly because that sucker gets hot in the sun (despite being FDE).

Gonna wait to see if MDT has a compatible Field Stock on sale come Thanksgiving; if not, probably slap a Magpul Hunter Light on it.

(It's a weird beastie: a 6.5 CM with a 16.5" heavy [not sure which profile] barrel. I'm not entirely sure why Savage made it, but until and unless I decide to swap the barrel out it is what it is.)

 

[drogin]

Been thinking about mounting an LPVO on my Fightlite SCR for a while now. Wound up ordering today.

I went with the Vortex Strike Eagle 1-8x24 FFP. They had it at optics planet on sale for about $470 versus the $799 MSRP.

I realize it isn't a top tier piece of gear, but based on the reviews I was seeing it was "acceptable/borderline" given the $799 MSRP, so even though the sale price doesn't magically improve the equipment, it does make it a bit more palatable in terms of taking the risk.

I think my main concerns are going to be the overall glass quality and possibly the eye-box at 8x.

My thing though is that many of the drawbacks don't really apply to me.

• Eye box at 8x seems like it was a problem for most reviews when on the move or not in a stable firing position. I'm not a high-speed operator.
• Weight. I'm not a high-speed operator.
• Bit of fish eye indoors at 1x. I'm not a high-speed operator.
• Illumination not being day-light bright. I'm not a high-speed operator.

This thing is going on something I only use at the range. In some truly horrific scenario where I needed it for its intended purposes, it would still offer me better utility than just the red dot I have now.

I'd get a bit of ranging/identification out to 8x distances. I could keep it dialed back to 6x for some improved eye box for anything out pass 200-300.

I didn't get a mounting system yet. With the Fightlite, you're already fighting cheek weld due to the stock, so I'm going to want to mount it lower than most typical AR cantilever style mounts are designed for. I think I'm just going to take it to the shop and see if I can find a set of rings that mounts it low without impairing other functions.

 

[Boskone]

Been thinking about mounting an LPVO on my Fightlite SCR for a while now. Wound up ordering today.

I went with the Vortex Strike Eagle 1-8x24 FFP. They had it at optics planet on sale for about $470 versus the $799 MSRP.

I realize it isn't a top tier piece of gear, but based on the reviews I was seeing it was "acceptable/borderline" given the $799 MSRP, so even though the sale price doesn't magically improve the equipment, it does make it a bit more palatable in terms of taking the risk.

I think my main concerns are going to be the overall glass quality and possibly the eye-box at 8x.

My thing though is that many of the drawbacks don't really apply to me.

• Eye box at 8x seems like it was a problem for most reviews when on the move or not in a stable firing position. I'm not a high-speed operator.
• Weight. I'm not a high-speed operator.
• Bit of fish eye indoors at 1x. I'm not a high-speed operator.
• Illumination not being day-light bright. I'm not a high-speed operator.

This thing is going on something I only use at the range. In some truly horrific scenario where I needed it for its intended purposes, it would still offer me better utility than just the red dot I have now.

I'd get a bit of ranging/identification out to 8x distances. I could keep it dialed back to 6x for some improved eye box for anything out pass 200-300.

I didn't get a mounting system yet. With the Fightlite, you're already fighting cheek weld due to the stock, so I'm going to want to mount it lower than most typical AR cantilever style mounts are designed for. I think I'm just going to take it to the shop and see if I can find a set of rings that mounts it low without impairing other functions.

Maybe put a cheek riser on it? I've had to do that to a few rifles.

I can't remember the one on my Tikka, but it's universal with .25 inch adjustment; I don't think you could install it on the Fightlite normally (with screws), but I bet some VHB tape would do the job semi-permanently. Or a wraparound riser, maybe.

For the latter, I've mocked up risers for fit using cheap exercise mats and veterinary wrap; it's stable IME, just ugly. Cut riser-sized pieces off of the mat, shave it to shape, and throw a layer of two of the wrap around to hold it in place.

 

[drogin]

Maybe put a cheek riser on it? I've had to do that to a few rifles.

I can't remember the one on my Tikka, but it's universal with .25 inch adjustment; I don't think you could install it on the Fightlite normally (with screws), but I bet some VHB tape would do the job semi-permanently. Or a wraparound riser, maybe.

For the latter, I've mocked up risers for fit using cheap exercise mats and veterinary wrap; it's stable IME, just ugly. Cut riser-sized pieces off of the mat, shave it to shape, and throw a layer of two of the wrap around to hold it in place.

Yeah, that's a great point and I forgot to mention it.

I think that's the other reason I want to bring it to the shop for the rings. See what the options there might be around a cheek riser. I have the more recent polymer stock, which is great, and hopefully it would be easier to put some kind of adjustable cheek riser there. Big question is if there is enough space for that given the buffer tube goes down into the stock.

 

[Boskone]

Where there's duct tape, there's a way.

Jokes aside, there are riser pads that slip over sporter rifle butts. Even if you pee the shop can't find a mechanically-attached solution, nor an adhesive attachment, one of those might work.

 

[drogin]

Where there's duct tape, there's a way.

Jokes aside, there are riser pads that slip over sporter rifle butts. Even if you pee the shop can't find a mechanically-attached solution, nor an adhesive attachment, one of those might work.

Haha, dude, I have totally considered the duct tap angle.

I know the slip-on ones exist, but I just hesitate because its still an imperfect solution (as they likely all will be to some degree). So it's really just the trade offs.

When I bought the SCR it had the original laminate stock, which had the following issues:

• Really low comb, because it was basically a Boyd's Remington 1100 stock.
• Only a traditional sling mounting option.
• Due to odd shape of the stock, many slip on rifle adjustments didn't fit very well (and they aren't as big of a thing with shotguns).
• "Sticky" recoil pad (again, shotgun style).
• Slippery grip (no checkering, very smooth laminate). I fixed this with Talon grip.
• Heavy.

When they released the latest polymer stock a year ago or whatever, I jumped right on it because:

• Comb was still kinda low, but not quite as low.
• Recoil pad wasn't sticky.
• Had QD sling points on either side of the stock.
• Textured grip
• Significantly lighter.

So, it was a really solid upgrade, but the things what would make it nearly perfect for me:

• Instead of thickish rubber recoil pad (which is entirely unnecessary), go with a LOP/Comb adjustment system similar to the Ruger American rifles.
• Have interchangeable/adjustable palm swells.

So that was overly long. Anyway, my worry with the polymer stick is that a slip-on cheek riser will cover the QD sling attachment points. So it would add one thing, but take away another.

 

[Tom the Melaniephile]

Hope nobody minds an excerpt from the debate last night - apparently Kamala is also a gun owner.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlHJpCG0rmI

 

[Backstop]

I heard that and immediately started wondering what kind of gun Harris would own. Obviously a chromed PPK jumped to mind...

but imagine if it was like a full sized Mosin 91/30 that's taller than she is with the bayonet extended.

 

[invertedpanda]

I heard that and immediately started wondering what kind of gun Harris would own. Obviously a chromed PPK jumped to mind...

I'd assume something small and concealable given it was for personal protection while she was a prosecutor.

Aside: She really missed a golden opportunity to ask Trump if he owned one Either he says yes and is breaking the law, or no and she says "Oh, that's right, felons can't own guns."

 

[invertedpanda]

So, I'm about to come into a little bit of money, and am debating which route to go.

If I decide to pick up a new firearm, it'll either be a lever action (Citadel Levtac 92 in 357 mag), a long-range bolt action build, or, if we end up having a freedom week here in IL where the AR ban is overturned briefly.. The parts to build my own AR15.

The lever action will be a "fun-gun" and SHTF purchase, as well as the cheaper one out of all the options (rifle would be around $800 with FFL transfer & tax.

The bolt gun would be a (most likely) Howa 1500 into a chassis for a mid-range cost ELR rifle (I MAY consider 6.5 CM, but part of me really wants to do 308 just because 6.5 CM is too much of an easy button). This one we're looking at around $1100 depending on the chassis, and that's before the scope (I actually will use a cheap Chinesium scope I have on-hand for a while anyway most likely for giggles, and will grab an Arken for it's final build) & bipod.

The more I think about it, the more I feel like the AR15 would be a bad idea in general; With the mandatory 3 day wait, the "freedom week" may not even last long enough to claim the purchase from the FFL, because I'd have to have it shipped, and then do the 3 day wait.. Not worth the risk.

 

[Boskone]

Here's my $0.02:

tl; dr: I'd go with a bolt.

I like AR-15s, but they're not my go-to platform. Probably the only times I would go to one of my ARs first is for hogs (I have a 6.5 Grendel built specifically for clearing fields), or my 5.56 when walking the pasture (which is a mix of medium-ish range shots and thick brush, so need to compromise between range and handiness).

Lever actions are a ton of fun, and good at what they do. However, there are a few down sides: pistol-caliber carbines are limited in range and potentially lethality (deer-killing at 100yd, but e.g. hogs at like half that), and some level designs can leave the fresh round "floating" when cycling the action (so if you move suddenly while cranking a round in, you could end up with a misfeed).

A bolt action is slower, but surer than many lever guns, in a vastly wider array of calibers, and generally more robust than an AR or lever. If we have a Red Dawn scenario, zombie apocalypse, or whatever IMO one would want a pistol for anything close enough the bolt becomes an issue.

I think if I were buying a schmancy rifle (Savage Axis are more my speed), I might investigate the Savage Impulse straight-pull rifles. If they're as robust as regular bolts, might be a good option: bolt precision, state compliancy, higher RoF, and I think they're available around the price of your Howa.

 

[invertedpanda]

tl; dr: I'd go with a bolt.

Yeah, bolt action is where I'm leaning too.. For multiple reasons.

One: I love long range shooting. It's damned relaxing, especially with a bolt action rifle, and is also a fun challenge.

Two: I'll spend less money on ammo because I wont be sending rounds as fast as they can be chambered

Three, I can spread the cost out on a build.

I decided there isn't much point in building out the whole rifle right now, because I wouldn't have much time to enjoy it before I hibernate for the winter. Instead I'll build a new gaming rig, and pick up the pieces as I can until late winter/early spring when I'd actually be able to take the thing out. Maybe I'll catch the stuff I want on sale; Barreled action is already pretty cheap ($420 at Brownell's in 308 with a 16.25" bull barrel, exactly what I want). Can also keep my eyes open for the right chassis; most likely will be a KRG X-Ray, but wouldn't turn down an MDT LSS-XL Gen2.

 

[Boskone]

Maybe keep an eye on Black Friday. Unlike other retail areas, you can sometimes find actual deals for firearm bits; e.g. dad bought a blemished LSS Gen2 last year for his 6mm ARC build for 40% off, and neither one of us can figure out what the blemish is.

And depending on your gaming needs, I've been doing most of mine on a Steam Deck these days. I'm not really a serious gamer anymore, though; most of my recent gaming has been Stardew Valley and Planet Crafter.

 

[invertedpanda]

And depending on your gaming needs, I've been doing most of mine on a Steam Deck these days. I'm not really a serious gamer anymore, though; most of my recent gaming has been Stardew Valley and Planet Crafter.

I'm priced out to $2,000 on my next build. Right now I've got a 3070 loaded laptop that I've had for over 3 years; Thing is a beast (although it's starting to show it's age), but I actually want to move this back to my office and have it be my work media rig (besides doing web dev I also occasionally do video work). The new machine is going to be a 4070 12G desktop; basically a step up all 'round. I'll also do personal video production work with it, and do some 3d rendering occasionally, so having that extra beef is a good thing.

Back on the subject of firearms, I watched a guy do a side-by-side comparison 16" DMRs - 308 vs. 6.5 CM - and I'll be damned if with the right ammo 308 still hold strong, even out to 1200 yards.

Now I want a 308 DMR I could actually go the DS-25 route, which is IL-compliant, but that's just less fun since I don't get to build it (plus, it's over $1,500).

Gonna stick with my 308 16.25" bolt gun build though. It may not be as "cool", but the rifle for me is a meditation tool more than anything else, and cycling the bolt up, back, forward, down is part of that.

What I'm actually most excited about is taking it out to the range with this really horrible, awful, cheap-AF Chinesium "Sniper" scope I got for free to review years back. I actually used it on my 22LR before I picked up my Bushnell Match Pro, and it is not horrible at all. It's not high-end glass by any means, but it does work. We'll see if it can hold up to 308 recoil

 

[Hap]

We'll see if it can hold up to 308 recoil

I had two Osprey optics lose their glass on top of a SCAR in .308, I got a nice cheek bruise the first time I fired it too.

 

[invertedpanda]

I had two Osprey optics lose their glass on top of a SCAR in .308, I got a nice cheek bruise the first time I fired it too.

I mean.. The SCAR is kinda notorious for destroying optics

 

[Hap]

I got a new rifle, impractical, but hell, I wanted it. Just a shame I didn't have the funds to get the original version with integrated suppressor and 13" barrel. Yes in .277 Fury, but I'll be getting a .308/6.5 barrel change kit eventually when they catch up. Waiting at the FFL for me to pickup. NOT GOING ON BLACK FRIDAY.

 

[invertedpanda]

I'm so jealous right now.

I've had to completely give up on plans to get any new firearms for the foreseeable future; I need to save my money for whatever shit ends up happening regarding healthcare, food costs, etc etc. with the incoming administration..

Also, IL still sucks in regards to not being able to buy/build a reasonably-priced AR platform rifle. I'd be perfectly OK with a DSI fixed-mag rifle if they weren't so damned expensive.. And it's not like I can just buy the lower from them and build the rest, because the law here basically makes it so selling AR parts to non-police/military IL residents is also illegal (yes, even uppers).

 

[NervousEnergy]

Fascinated by the Spear, but have absolutely no use for it whatsoever. Beautiful rifle. They have a .556 version for $2600, though then it's just another piston AR, and I have a very nice version of a piston gun already (ILWT IC). A 308 or 7.62 would be useful for heavy metal comps.

I'm so jealous right now.

I've had to completely give up on plans to get any new firearms for the foreseeable future; I need to save my money for whatever shit ends up happening regarding healthcare, food costs, etc etc. with the incoming administration..

Also, IL still sucks in regards to not being able to buy/build a reasonably-priced AR platform rifle. I'd be perfectly OK with a DSI fixed-mag rifle if they weren't so damned expensive.. And it's not like I can just buy the lower from them and build the rest, because the law here basically makes it so selling AR parts to non-police/military IL residents is also illegal (yes, even uppers).

I thought the IL AWB got nuked and perm injuncted 3 weeks ago.

 

[Hap]

First handling impression - It feels surprisingly light and honestly a bit cheap. Granted, I'm constantly readying reading about how heavy the Spear is, but my benchmark is a fully loaded M1A and that thing gets real heavy after just a minute or two. Also, many of my AR builds tend to be big bore heavy (.458 H'AMR) or precision (18" 6.5 CM) setups. For such an expensive rifle, it came in a garbage box with no manual or anything (other than a single mag) honestly. Every other pre-built rifle I've had has come with a nice printed manual and usually an ok to decent case. I mean, yes - you want all the value to be in the rifle, but at $4.2K, seems like they could have done a touch more.

EDIT: and seemly typical of the new trend, there are 4-5 different shades of "FDE" on the rifle.

 

[invertedpanda]

I thought the IL AWB got nuked and perm injuncted 3 weeks ago.

Technically briefly, but there was an immediate appeal with the ban staying in place.

 

[Boskone]

I was kinda interested in the Spear when it was announced, but it's kind of a lot of money (for me, at least) for a gun that doesn't solve any critical problems, and a good round who's uses are covered by calibers I already own...and would be yet another caliber to keep up with.

So I decided to pass. If I ever find a patch of land I like and it doesn't get snapped up before I can, I'll want the $ for other stuff anyway.

I'm pretty stocked on guns anyway. Maybe if I stumbled on a screamin' deal on a 10mm lever gun, but that doesn't seem likely.

 

[thrillgore]

In anticipation of potential developments, I'm going to pull my Five Seven out of its deposit box and into a gun safe at home. Anyone got any recommendations for a decent gun safe that won't leave me embarrassed in six months when LPL cracks it open? I am looking for something relatively small.

 

[invertedpanda]

In anticipation of potential developments, I'm going to pull my Five Seven out of its deposit box and into a gun safe at home. Anyone got any recommendations for a decent gun safe that won't leave me embarrassed in six months when LPL cracks it open? I am looking for something relatively small.

Fort Knox. The PB1 for pistols; just a solid option overall.

 

[Boskone]

In anticipation of potential developments, I'm going to pull my Five Seven out of its deposit box and into a gun safe at home. Anyone got any recommendations for a decent gun safe that won't leave me embarrassed in six months when LPL cracks it open? I am looking for something relatively small.

I believe he and/or Bosnian Bill both thought well of Stealth and Vaultek.

The latter had a vulnerability when he first tested, but they shipped owners a little doodad to cover the issue and fixed later runs.

 

[NervousEnergy]

Oh man I screwed up and idly checked Gunbroker for PS90 prices - and they're for some unfortunate reason way down. Must. Resist.

'Cause I know I'd turn it into a vanity project and dump money into it when I don't need that. I just don't. Really.

...could sell the gen 2 MPX I hardly use.... NO. MUST RESIST.

 

[whm2074]

I've been watching videos on the SKS rifle on YouTube. I can remember those things used to sell for under $100 for Chinese Type 56. Granted they smeared in Cosmoline, but still.

 

[Boskone]

Yea, I kick myself over not buying an SKS and Mosin (or three) back when they were dirt cheap.

Neither's a great rifle in most respects, but they're robust and good enough for most uses.

(It's just one of many such regrets, hindsight being 20/20 and all.)