Scoop: Origami measuring spoon incites fury after 9 years of Kickstarter delay hell

keshlam

Seniorius Lurkius
10
I have seen a product failed to reach the market because it's designer was overly picky and left time for folks to see the disclosure, develop inferior knockoffs that had the same appearance as the prototype (which was never intended to be the final appearance), and get them out to the market.

On a simple device, when you don't have a patent or the patent can be easily worked around, first mover advantage accrues to whoever can move fastest. Being the original does you no good if you are late to market. Indeed, the inferior clones may ruin the market by convincing people that the product wasn't that good in the first place.

Developer beware. The moment it gets out the door without an NDA, they will be somebody trying to compete with you. Unless you have a strong patent, they will do their best to eat your lunch. And you may want to consider getting a design patent as well, which is the hardware equivalent of copyright on the appearance of the object, so the knockoffs are forced to at least appear a bit different.

(The frustrating thing was, that patent actually had other applications as well, possibly more lucrative ones. But the inventor was hell-bent on executing their vision for it, and was never willing to step back far enough to let it get to market any other way. Painful lesson for him; slightly less painful for me.)
 
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cacarr

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" ... his design, while appearing simplistic, ..."

People, Ms. Belanger, everyone -- "simplistic" does not mean simple, nor does it mean very simple or pleasingly simple, or any such thing. It means too simple for purpose. A simplistic design is a design that fails to include something that's necessary. "Simplistic" does not have a positive or neutral sense.
 
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android_alpaca

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" ... his design, while appearing simplistic, ..."

People, Ms. Belanger, everyone -- "simplistic" does not mean simple, nor does it mean very simple or pleasingly simple, or any such thing. It means too simple for purpose. A simplistic design is a design that fails to include something that's necessary. "Simplistic" does not have a positive or neutral sense.

Isn't a piece of flat rectangular silicone with some grooves cut into it seem to be "too simple" to be able to measure be able to accurately measure out one tablespoon, one teaspoon, 1/2 teaspoon and 1/4 teaspoon separately in a few seconds?

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Again, if you look above, I'm not saying this product is practical. Just not seeing the issue with the wording in the article. In reality, language is a messy, ever changing thing and dictionary definitions are just static records of their use - despite prescriptivist trying to lock down the "proper" use of a word, writers have been flaunting norms all the time - such as using "literally" as one would use "figuratively".

Tom Sawyer as “literally rolling in wealth” -- Mark Twain
Jay Gatsby “literally glowed” -- F Scott Fitzgerald
Mozart piece as “literally knocking everything else into a cocked hat” -- James Joyce

To people now using word for the opposite of their original meaning

“symposium” used to mean a drinking party
“egregious” used to mean remarkably good
“harlot” used to mean a man of good cheer.
"peruse" used to mean to scrutinize very slowly and carefully
 
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FangsFirst

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when to some degree there is almost no penalty to over-sharing (I mean considering how many crowdfund creators just take the money and run and face no legal repercussions, I don't see how sharing actual work happening can hurt)
I've been a part of a few where "blame everyone else, pity me" updates did not sit well with people, and certainly did their own reputational damage.

I say this as someone who has been with Kickstarters that went multiple years past their expected delivery date—broadly, you're right, most of us were happy with regular comms.

But one stuck out to me for being whingy with us and trying a little too hard to not be responsible for making some poor decisions (I remember which one it was, but not quite what the updates were that even put my usually-patient ass off)

Given there are generally no repercussions to bad, absent comms or even failure to deliver other than reputation as well, I'd say you are still better off overcommunicating, but it does carry some risks
 
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I think there's a typo there. Pretty sure it should be silicone, as in the polymer
It’s a common typo. I examined a patent for a catheter that claimed it was made out of silicon. I had to point out to the applicant that I didn’t think it was possible to make a bendable tube out of a semiconductor!
 
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While the spoon appears to be a clever invention, the basic problem is that spoons are measuring the wrong thing. They measure volume when what you really want to measure is mass.

I was diagnosed as a type-2 diabetic a few years ago and started using a scale to ensure portion control. I quickly discovered that it is far easier (and more accurate!) to use the scale to measure things than to use measuring spoons/cups. When mixing up something, I just hit the Tare button on the scale before directly adding each ingredient to the mix from its container while watching the display.

For most liquids, you can just treat millilitres as grams. For dry measuring, you have to do a test to get the right conversion, but after that I just revise the menus to replace (tea|table)spoons with grams.

Of course, this is easier to implement if your recipes are already in metric instead of bizarre ancient measurements. :)
I'm with you on measuring most things by weight. But spoons are a special case - you can stick the spoon into the jar of spices / seasoning / yeast / oil / ... and come out with exactly the right amount. If you tried to do that by weight, first you'd need an accurate scale (need to measure sub gram accuracy for light things like spices) and then you'd need to add them gradually to the scale, and then transfer some back into the jar if you overshot (hoping it wasn't contaminated in the process). A spoon in ml is the optimal tool for the job.
 
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Fatesrider

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Of course I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt and he seems to have put a lot of thought into the design, but have you ever tried to clean any dried protein gunk from a scratched plastic spatula? Anything with any protein in it (milk powder, whatever) and some moisture (steam from cooking) will absolutely turn into a very hard to clean gunk after drying out. And I don't think a metal mesh sponge would help there either, apart from scratching it up even more.

Sure, it might not be that big of an issue in practice (I use slightly dirty plastic spatulas all the time), I was just pointing out his dubious marketing claim that it's inherently more easy to clean than a stainless scoop. Any dubious claim like that is always a red flag for me.

You can clearly see very thin grooves on the front as well. And please kindly tell us how do you actually scoop up anything without the backside of the spoon touching the scooped up stuff inside the container? That's literally impossible, in both senses of the word "literal"...
It depends on what the "plastic" is made from, and if my guess is correct, it could account for why they're having issues filling order.

If it's silicone, nothing you're going to cook with will stick to that. Even if you get sticky gunk on it, that'll wipe off easily, And that lack of sticking might be why they have issues with it. You need SOME friction to get two things to stick together, and even if you pinch the sides to create the scoop, using a tongue in groove kind of thing, silicone doesn't have a treat gripping power against silicone.

I'm also not sure why touching the back of the scoop matters. That happens with any measuring spoon, even if it's claimed not to. You don't generally use the same spoon over and over without wiping or rinsing it between simply because you CAN mix things you don't want to mix in the containers if you're scooping it out. And that would usually be frowned on.

I'm not defending this guy's excessive length of time getting his product out there. But the pictures suggest it's made from ONE material molded together, and there may be non-obvious reasons why they can't produce them at greater volume. After all, he started this thing to get the funding to make them. I don't know if he had a functional prototype at the beginning, but I'd say probably not. I can't say what caused the hold-up before 2020, other than Trump was in charge of the country and shit went sideways. Then it went even more sideways globally toward the end of his reign of terror during the supply chain clusterfuck over COVID restrictions and the economy. And some of that is still a bit backlogged (no idea if it's impacting his efforts or not, though, so it's just a factor that may, or may not apply).

I mean, I'd be pissed too if it's taking 9 years to get this thing out to investors. But I can see a lot of factors playing into the delay (like supply chain, inflation, production costs and disruptions) that ended up playing havoc with the effort. And I'd think that if it was just a "take the money and run" thing, he'd have closed shop and disappeared long ago.
 
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Wtcher

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This was a tough read. I also ran a Kickstarter years ago that failed. It blew up more than I expected and I just got in over my head.

I think I fulfilled about half of them and then gave up and just gave 110% refunds, but to this day I still feel incredible shame over it.

It sounds like a horribly stressful and disappointing time, I can't imagine what you must had gone through.

That said, you tried your best. You attempted to make things right, and that's definitely worth something.

:)
 
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2021Ars2021

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Not to mention, I don't want to mix the spoons for say, nutmeg and vanilla extract, nor do I want to be rinsing it in between ingredients. Neat idea and I guess it could have applications beyond my imagination, but I don't really see the point of this product.
There is no point it's just the hubris of being pretentious
 
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xpoet

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Solved problem:

https://us.josephjoseph.com/products/measure-up-adjustable-measuring-spoon-blue

Eight bucks. Sanitary, elegant, metric and imperial, use mine all the time. Slide to adjust capacity, center removes for cleaning.

View attachment 105145

I've had a similar, but different brand, one for at least 15 years. (Maybe KitchenArt?)

Anyway, adjustable measuring spoons are very common. I think I have seen them in grocery stores. Crazy to me that anyone would ever have been excited about this Kickstarter gamble.
 
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Rayrod

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I backed the “coolest cooler” which had a lot of interesting bells and whistles for a cooler - at the time the largest backed kickstarter project. Waited years, but never got what I paid for. The bitterest part was that they were selling units in stores, while not shipping units to those like myself who had already paid for one. (Seems like that should be against the basic rules of Kickstarter, but what do I know.) I’ll tell you what I do know, having lost a couple hundred dollars on that, what I don’t hesitate calling a scam, I’ll never back another kickstarter project ever, since there’s no guarantee you’ll get what you paid for.
Crowd funding gadgets seems obsolete in the age of 3D printing. Hey, how about KS funding a business that does just that: takes KS gadget ideas and produces prototypes on demand with guaranteed delivery times.
 
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KeyboardWeeb

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I've backed exactly 1 Kickstarter project, for a certain manga to be printed in English and officially sold online. In fact, I think it was around the same timeframe.

For years, there was nothing. Only excuses.

Eventually some of the backer rewards were shipped, and I got them. The one thing that didn't ship, and still hasn't after all these years? The books themselves. They gave us all coupon codes to buy the digital version though (those of us who didn't have free digital copies as a reward anyway).

I'm convinced I'll never see the books.
 
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Besserwisser

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In metric, A cup is 250ml, a teaspoon is 5ml, a tablespoon is 15ml. Both nomenclatures can work together.
Actually where I live, measuring sets are typically a set of 100ml ,50ml, 15ml, 5ml and 1ml spoons. The 15, 5 and 1 are also marked "table spoon", "tea spoon" and "spice" respectively.

Spice I guess is kind of equivalent to a "pinch" 😁
 
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android_alpaca

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So, it's a real product, it's of decent quality, but he couldn't actually deliver them at the cost he Kickstarted them, and now he needs cash flow to produce the orders they all are entitled to so he's prioritizing new orders instead?
It's more that he spent all the Kickstarter money converting the prototype into something that could be mass-produced at a decent level of quality. Now he doesn't have the capital left after 9 years to make a large product order so he need the money from store orders to be able to make the factory orders for the Kickstarter group. It's not great by any means, but given his predicament it's a "practical" solution for a business (unless peopel think he ought to personally go into debt to get a loan to do it)
for 9 years
To be clear, it's been 9 years since the Kickstarter was funded, most of that time was through failed prototypes and failed factory runs. I think it's been less than a year since he's started selling the product to non-KS backers to "kickstart" his fulfillment of Backers (and they are slowly getting them). Again obviously KS backers would prefer to be prioritized, but I can understand that why even an honest creator would choose this route over ruining their own personal savings to fulfill the order given that most of the backers would still hate him anyways.
 
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More often than not, my problem is that I need clean duplicates of the same size of measuring utensils, like using a tablespoon for oil and then needing a tablespoon for spices. If anything, this seems like it would just make things even worse.
I mix my dry ingredients first. I rinse and wipe the spoons and then do the wet ingredients. Granted, exact measurements are really only needed for baking (being a chemical reaction type of cooking); herbs often get estimated in the palm of my hand but perfect accuracy isn't necessary in things like soups anyway.
 
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Rex Luscus

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I'm with you on measuring most things by weight. But spoons are a special case - you can stick the spoon into the jar of spices / seasoning / yeast / oil / ... and come out with exactly the right amount. If you tried to do that by weight, first you'd need an accurate scale (need to measure sub gram accuracy for light things like spices) and then you'd need to add them gradually to the scale, and then transfer some back into the jar if you overshot (hoping it wasn't contaminated in the process). A spoon in ml is the optimal tool for the job.
If you are cooking, you don't usually need to weigh out a teaspoon or even 5ml of something., not even spices. You can easily estimate small amounts which aren't usually critical, or just use a regular teaspoon/tablespoon. I have 4 or 5 different sizes of teaspoon, and I've no idea which of them is the same as those of the person who compiled the recipe I'm using, but it's unlikely to make much difference to the outcome (so long as you don't confuse 1tsp of chilli flakes with 1 tbsp). And don't even get me started on 'Freedom units', 'cups' as a measure of either weight or volume, or 'sticks' of that weird fat that Americans think is butter!
 
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I think there's a typo there. Pretty sure it should be silicone, as in the polymer
Since silicon is a metal with a rigid crystalline atomic structure, it does not respond to bending stresses well, unless your goal is to break it. People often confuse silicon and silicone; some short wavelength scanning fiber lasers even claim to have silicone mirrors doing the scanning.
 
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On a simple device, when you don't have a patent or the patent can be easily worked around, first mover advantage accrues to whoever can move fastest.
Patents by individuals are very costly and require deep pockets to defend. The US Patent office will not pursue patent infringers, it is up to the patent holder to take legal action, and pay the legal bills. Individuals getting patents are largely for bragging rights, and many patents are actually for worthless "inventions". On average, at least 6 perpetual motion machines get patented every year and there are lots of even worse "inventions" (there is an actual patent for the "comb-over").
 
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trevor_darley

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Many people in this thread express something I fully agree with: Kickstarter isn't a pre-ordering system, it's a way to help get an idea into the world (whether it succeeds or not). My problem with Kickstarter is that, while they do have the "you're SOL if this project fails" disclaimer, the descriptions of reward tiers do not fully emphasize that your reward is something you might get if the person who started the campaign is feeling generous. Much of the "customer" anger would be mitigated if the reward tiers made it more clear that backers aren't customers at all: they're patrons.

Also, many people get used to GoFundMe's anti-bad-actor policies and are surprised to learn that Kickstarter is the Wild West in comparison.
 
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pepoluan

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Not to mention, I don't want to mix the spoons for say, nutmeg and vanilla extract, nor do I want to be rinsing it in between ingredients. Neat idea and I guess it could have applications beyond my imagination, but I don't really see the point of this product.
And how do you not mix the spoons?
By having several measuring spoons.
You can also buy several Polygon spoons as well. You're not limited to just one.

The difference is, rather than having a set for nutmeg, a set for vanilla, and so on, you can just buy 1 for nutmeg, 1 for vanilla, and so on.
 
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To be clear, it's been 9 years since the Kickstarter was funded, most of that time was through failed prototypes and failed factory runs. I think it's been less than a year since he's started selling the product to non-KS backers to "kickstart" his fulfillment of Backers (and they are slowly getting them). Again obviously KS backers would prefer to be prioritized, but I can understand that why even an honest creator would choose this route over ruining their own personal savings to fulfill the order given that most of the backers would still hate him anyways.
To be clear...

Yes, delays happen, but the campaign was estimating delivery of product in 2017...please do not try and argue that a delay of over 8 years is normal by any means...6 months? 12 months? Hell, even 18 months? Sure. Not 8 years.

In an update to backers dated January 25, 2020, the final version of the product was finished and began shipping in early January of 2020. "most of that time was through failed prototypes and failed factory runs" is not true.

To be clear...

Polygons has been on sale to the public since March of 2022. Certainly not "less than a year". Again, I can see the merit in giving a little grace to a startup to give them a few months, maybe 6 to get their cash flow in order to get the deliveries out, but it's been 3 years and still almost half the backers have yet to get their product.

To be clear...

People are mad because it's all just lies and excuses. It's less about their failure and more about how they handled it that is upsetting the KS backers.
 
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android_alpaca

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To be clear...

Yes, delays happen, but the campaign was estimating delivery of product in 2017...please do not try and argue that a delay of over 8 years is normal by any means...6 months? 12 months? Hell, even 18 months? Sure. Not 8 years.
TLDR: "Never attribute to malevolence what is merely due to incompetence" - Arthur C. Clarke, variation of Hanlon's Razor

There is no question that this particular first time creator made a lot of mistakes as as the article mentions "This is when things started spiraling, as Agarwal had to switch manufacturers five times, with each partner crashing into new walls trying to execute the novel product" and 8 years is extremely late delivery (halfway to Duke Nukem Forever territory). Delays happen even with experienced builders/creators as seen with Benro, a tripod company that has been around for 30 years being over 2 years later on their Kickstarter. My point was to clarify that the person hasn't spend the last 8 years selling the finished product while leaving KS-backers in the lurch.

"most of that time was through failed prototypes and failed factory runs" is not true.
Sorry, I misread the article saying switching five manufacturers and thought that was during the production phase and not the prototyping hpase. That being said you agree that it took 3.5-4 of the 8 years from the start of the 2016 Kickstarter campaign until they had a pre-production prototype that was ready to be mass produced - so do you agree that nearly half the time was spend on that?

In an update to backers dated January 25, 2020, the final version of the product was finished and began shipping in early January of 2020.
I don't have access to the January 25, 2020 Update as I'm not a backer, but can you share that update... but I do note that some was happening in China around late-January, early-2020 2020 as the article mentions.

"Around the time that the prototyping process concluded, Agarwal noted, COVID hit, and supply chains were disrupted, causing production setbacks. Once production could resume, costs became a factor, as estimates used to set Kickstarter backer awards were based on the early failed Chinese prototype, and the costs of producing a functioning spoon were much higher. Over time, shipping costs also rose."

20200411_WOC100.png


You have to admit that this likely was a big wrench in the production of the product ... and probably continued through 2022.

Polygons has been on sale to the public since March of 2022. Certainly not "less than a year".
Then I was wrong, I just was interpreting from what the article said about starting to go to tradeshows in 2024. I caveated in my post I said "I think it's been less than a year since he's started selling the product"


Again, I can see the merit in giving a little grace to a startup to give them a few months, maybe 6 to get their cash flow in order to get the deliveries out,
How are you reasoning that out. In my limited experience the turnaround is a lot more than a few months. Like an order to factory takes 3-6 months to be fulfilled. Then you start selling and shipping those new product (unlike Kickstarter pledges most regular sales only charge once the product is shipping) and then you make another order with that money which takes another 3-6 months to get fulfilled

So if the creator had bad/limited credit and was in debt by 2022. It is conceivable that it took 2-3 rounds to ramp up credit and production. I remember a small sneaker company I buy from saying that it takes like several months for a factory order to come in as to why they run out of sizes and colors quickly.



but it's been 3 years and still almost half the backers have yet to get their product.
It took basically 2+ years for most of the auto industry to stop having electronic chip component shortages and they had the money, it's just the factory production was extremely limited and there were a lot of buyers in the queue - which also pushed out smaller orders.

Automotive chip shortages to continue throughout 2023, industry says Chipmakers are adding more capacity but are effectively sold out until 2024.
Raspberry Pi 5 not arriving in 2023 as company hopes for a “recovery year”
Raspberry Pi inventory improving in 2023
Raspberry Pi availability is visibly improving after years of shortages (Aug 2023)

Now these were electronic supply chain shortages, but I'm pretty sure that all Chinese production faced similar issues through the first half of 2024. 3 years is a very long time, but they are still actually delivering - how many KS campaigns are still actually trying to fulfill Backers.

People are mad because it's all just lies and excuses. It's less about their failure and more about how they handled it that is upsetting the KS backers.
I take it you are one of those bitter backers? YMMV, but the narrative that the article presents that it was more inexperience/incompetence than fraudulence seems reasonable to me. I don't know what specific lies and excuses you are talking about, but I agree thst it sounds like Polygon did a terrible job at honest communication- I previously post here that I agree backers would be more tolerant of technical/logistical failure so long as there was consistent, honest communication
 
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This was the project that killed Kickstarter for me. Only backed like 3 others prior so not in for millions, but this was where I saw KS was completely hands-off even for obvious scams like this one.
A little disappointed Ars gave that con artist a chance to swindle more people. No one needs 9 years and millions to make some plastic spoons if you ever intended to deliver.
 
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Decades of smooth logistics has made folks forget, manufacturing is HARD

COVID was a reminder. But I think Trumps 'winning' is going to drive home how hard, and fragile manufactureing and logistics really is.
Predictably surprising the people who thought that things magically just appear on shleves
Yes. This is the thing. I've designed multiple projects for manufacture, & it's genuinely hard to do - especially for people starting from zero manufacturing experience who have no idea what the hurdles are, & how many iterations are required to get a usable & reliable product. A lot of honest (non-scammy) Kickstarter projects are doomed to failure because the person has no idea how to estimate the time & money required; much as your typical MBA has no idea how to project-manage a software project.
 
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The Kickstarter problem is also an Indiegogo problem- in early 2019 a crowd funder for the Mircrodrone 4.0 (off the back of 3 previous models!) promised a production ready device ready which would be shipped in June 2019. Fast forward almost 6 years; and $1.6m collected on Indiegogo (plus various campaigns outside the platform), and there is still no product. The campaign is finally suspended and under review but as recently as March 2025, it was posting about attending trade shows. Ironically, for a product that was "production ready" in Feb 2019, there was a January 2025 update on redesign progress.

Looking at the statutory accounts, which are available on the public register in the UK, shows another issue with crowd funding that funders aren't often completely aware of. By backing a project, you've not entered into a contract to be provided with something, if it doesn't work- tough. And as a result, there is no liability for $1.6m on the company's balance sheet, which means as far as the world is concerned, the company doesn't owe any of its backers a cent.
 
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niwax

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Yeah; I've always looked at Kickstarters as "I want to support this person, and it looks like they may have a viable plan to deliver product."

Essentially, I view it as a way to donate money to people who I already appreciate for something else they've done. If I get the product (and so far I always have!), that's a bonus.

If you're going into it thinking "I want one of those and that's a reasonable price!" Well, there's a reason the price is low; there's no guarantee it'll ever get delivered.

In this particular case though, the product always seemed like a solution in search of a problem. Why? Because if I'm using measures for something, I'm usually measuring out multiple ingredients. Which means if I'm using this one tool, I'll need to clean it and dry it between every single ingredient I need to measure. And it's floppy. And the handle is angled in the wrong direction.

I could see the utility in something that folded flat and could convert between a lifter and a scoop; then you could use it for two separate purposes. But measuring spoons are more the "need multiple for the same purpose" thing than "need one for many" type of thing.

I never could figure out why people got excited about them in the first place.

Think about it this way: Someone supposedly has a heart-and-soul project of a brilliant device with tens of thousands of patient customers queuing to pay above-retail for right now, yet neither a bank or an investor wants to touch the project with a ten foot pole nor does the creator want to take out a personal loan that would barely amount to buying a nice car. Do you want to be fourth in that line of suckers?

That doesn't imply anything nefarious about the founder, just an utter lack of business, manufacturing and management sense.
 
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