Review: Go greener with Chrysler’s plug-in Pacifica Hybrid minivan
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Ars Legatus Legionis
It is a tax credit not a deduction. Unless your tax liability is less than $6,000 the hybrid would be the same price or cheaper after considering the tax credit.
Every situation is different, but as an example, if you are Married filing jointly with a combined taxable income of $67,000 and take the standard deduction your federal taxes would be ~$6,000. The tax credit can't be more than your taxes due so in that situation you would get a $6K credit and it would make the hybrid have the same post tax price as the non-hybrid.
If you make more than that you would get a larger credit (up to the max of $7,500) which would make the hybrid up to $1,500 cheaper than the non-hybrid. So finances depending the hybrid could be cheaper even before the reduced fuel costs.
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My wife and I got one of these for her to go along with my 2016 Volt. It is one of the nicest cars I've ever bought, and I really don't understand why I haven't heard more about the hybrids. It is amusing that, although the battery pack is almost exactly the same as my Volt, it gets about 2/3 the range, I'm assuming due to weight, size, and added features. My wife can make it to work and back purely on battery when driving my Volt, but only makes it about halfway back home in her van. The charger is also more capable in the van, charging at 6.6kW instead of the 3.3kW charger on the Volt, so her van charges in about half the time on a level 2 charger.
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It's really disappointing that the hybrid doesn't have the vacuum. That was the single feature likely to push my husband towards a van. Purchasing one to keep in the van just isn't the same.
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Our kids are in/about to enter college, so our minivan years are behind us, but we would have loved this back in the day. Good luck to Chrysler with it!
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I can understand why the second row seats don't fold but the stow-and-go feature of Chrysler's minivans is a big feature. Probably more important in a minivan than better gas mileage.
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Fun read. You forgot one HUGE benefit of electric vs gas power ... maintenance costs. We've had a plug-in hybrid since '14 and noticed that we only take it in for service (of any kind) every 18 months or so. The reduced maintenance costs were probably the biggest surprise (in a nice way) for us in driving plug-ins.
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I hear ya. Our kids aren't in college yet and not old enough to drive so we still cart them around. However, they are beyond the days when opening the car door would result in dinging the car next to us so last year we ditched our Odyssey.
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The laws of physics start taking over when it comes to things like physical mass and frontal area. Colin Chapman's "add lightness" and all that.
All joking aside, the average new car in the USA now has a transaction price of over $32K USD. That's actual sale price, not MSRP.
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I can't imagine that's recommended? Even with synthetic I wouldn't think you'd want to go over a year between oil changes.
And beyond oil changes, I'm not sure any new ICE, hybrid or not, should need anything else for several years.
There should be significant long run maintenance savings for full electric over ICE, but hybrids I don't see why there would be. Still seeing wear and tear on the motor and transmission, plus you've got the batteries now also deteriorating over time.
Edit: Confirmed. Mobil 1 and others spec a max of 12 months, and I checked some manufacturers; Ford is upfront with still recommending oil changes every 6 months for hybrids, for example. I could go 18 months with my truck, too, if I hated myself (and my truck).
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It was better—I got 33.9mpg, while Chrysler says 32mpg overall. Battery-only range was worse, which I suspect was due to the weather.
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Keep in mind the third row does still stow-and-go. That makes for a lot of cargo room, while still carrying 4. Perfect for us, at least.
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My Volt's manual specifies oil changes every two years (unless the oil life monitor specifies doing it sooner). In general the ICE runs pretty rarely so you don't have to get it serviced nearly as often. Though I agree the maintenance costs will likely end up somewhere between full electric and full ICE.
Battery deterioration has proven to be a non-issue so far in any of the better designed cars that regulate battery temperature (i.e., not a Leaf). Of course all of these cars are pretty young still.
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You do get slightly less engine wear because of stop and go for sure, and a lot less brake wear. On my Prius for example, if you brake lightly, the rear brakes and the electric motor brake until your pedal reaches a certain threshold when the fronts kick in. May be a little more suspension wear because of the hybrid, but the batteries do seem last a very long time, at least on the old NiMH Priuseses.
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Keep in mind some with a taxable income of $67,000 a year can't afford a $50,000 minivan. They most likely buy used especially if it is a family.
On my $52,000 a year income I can just barely afford a $25,000 vehicle.
So while you are technically correct. The people who can afford a new mini van are already way up and over the tax credit anyways.
As for the van itself. I kinda wish I could afford it. but with kids and a house, and student loan debt no minivan will be in our garage for many many years to come. Though this does give me hope for something cool and useful (especially if they put the vac in it too)
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I know you are mostly joking, top of the line toyota and honda minivans also top out just shy of $50k. The top trims are luxury vehicles in all but badge.
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I’m guessing you haven’t been van shopping in the last 5-10 years.
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"Your mileage may vary" with regard to cost of electricity.
I'm in the "fourth tier" of consumption for much of the year in So Cal (swimming pool pump, a/c, and electric car) so I pay an incremental cost of $0.31 per kWHr under that condition, about equal with the price of gasoline per mile in my Gen 1 Volt. I get a net gain over the year because I dip into the lower consumption tiers but my base rate is around 11 cents, something my Texas co-workers give me grief about (their base is in the six cent range as well).
I'm in the "fourth tier" of consumption for much of the year in So Cal (swimming pool pump, a/c, and electric car) so I pay an incremental cost of $0.31 per kWHr under that condition, about equal with the price of gasoline per mile in my Gen 1 Volt. I get a net gain over the year because I dip into the lower consumption tiers but my base rate is around 11 cents, something my Texas co-workers give me grief about (their base is in the six cent range as well).
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Maybe this is just get-off-my-lawn ranting, but this is the sort of sentiment that automotive journalism could use less of. I remember accelerating down an on-ramp in the ancestor, a Gen II Voyager with a 100hp I4 and 3300lb curb weight. That was a genuinely sedate experience, except when it was pants-shittingly terrifying.
Google says this brute tips the scales at about an even 5000lb, so a 260hp engine gets us south of 20 lb/hp. That was approaching sporty twenty years ago.
Yes, I know it says "compared to its sibling", but we'd all be driving vehicles that were substantially cheaper and more fuel efficient if we didn't demand that even minivans could hold their own on a drag strip.
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edit for clarification: "less powerful than" is obviously totally fair. That's an objective description. The language "underpowered compared to" is what rankles. Outside of automotive-journalism-land, neither vehicle is underpowered.
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YMMV on oil then, I checked a couple Ford Hybrids and they maintained normal-ish oil change intervals. And they OP also said no maintenance at all for 18 months, but your 2013 Volt still recommends a fairly consistent stream of work:
https://my.chevrolet.com/content/dam/gm ... 20Volt.pdf
Edmunds also found a somewhat variable timeframe, the oil life seemed to be around 30K miles, so it depends on how much the motor runs.
https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/volt/ ... nance.html
But ultimately, the manufacturers of oil are recommending 12 months max, so I'm sticking to 18 months between visits to the shop being unnecessarily risky for an ICE.
https://mobiloil.com/en/faq/product-faqs
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Even though this car will not be affordable to everyone, it should mean the technology will trickle down to cheaper cars
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Statistical
Ars Legatus Legionis
Oil manufacturer (the one who benefits from consumers buying more oil) recommends 12K max.
Car manufacturer (the one who would pay for any warrantied work as a result of insufficient oil changes) recommends changing oil when advised by the vehicle which can be up to 18K miles depending on the ICE duty cycle.
I know which one I would go with.
Still I am glad the debate is now 12K vs 18K not the silly you need to change your oil every 3K miles nonsense we had for decades.
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Agreed. Sadly, I have a 2013 Sienna and the driver side second row seat is an absolute PITA to get in and out. I finally decided to yank them out permanently along with the sliding rails, so the floor is totally flat when I put the third row down. The kids actually don’t mind sitting in the third row; they get to make comments under their breath without their parents hearing them.
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I imagine that these companies are going by some average gasoline driving mile estimate for the time. If you almost never use that engine, then why would you need to change the oil as often?
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We've had one of these, in Southern Ontario, since last June, and we love it. I'll note, though, that when it's winter-cold, the gas engine runs a *lot*. I don't know what the trigger point is, but anywhere around or below freezing, it would run the gas engine preferentially to using the battery, even when the battery was full. This might be the most efficient, I don't know. My wife, though, doesn't like it, as she mostly uses it around town, and the battery range is normally plenty for her, and she would *really* like to avoid doing the fill-ups in the winter.
Again, we love the Pacifica Hybrid, but wanted readers to be aware that if you're in a colder climate, you're going to be using a lot more gas than you might have anticipated.
Again, we love the Pacifica Hybrid, but wanted readers to be aware that if you're in a colder climate, you're going to be using a lot more gas than you might have anticipated.
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I said 12 months, not 12K miles. It's not hard to get them to back the product for 25K miles (Amsoil, for example), but I didn't find any oil brand with a quick search that'd say more than 12 months.
Also, yes, they benefit from a shorter interval, but they're also recommending far longer intervals than the car manufacturers on the mileage side, just not the time side.
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Statistical
Ars Legatus Legionis
Good point. Personally I wouldn't like to keep oil in the engine for more than a year regardless of mileage. It might just be me refusing to adapt but engines do slowly accumulate moisture and that ends up in the oil. The moisture uptake is more time dependent not mileage dependent.
Then again I change the oil in my lawn mower once a year as well. I had a neighbor which says he has never change the oil just adds a bit as needed.
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"Under the hood is a 3.6-liter Pentastar V6 engine specific to the hybrid model. Designed for greater efficiency, the engine uses the Atkinson Cycle along with an increased compression ratio to generate 260hp (194kW) on a reduced air-fuel mixture."
Just picking nits, it has an increased expansion ratio, not compression ratio, we are just used to Otto cycle engines where they are equal. The Prius has a 13:1 expansion ratio, but only a 8:1 compression ratio. I would expect similar for the Pacifica Atkinson cycle engine.
(a quick google does not yield the ratios for the Pacifica)
Just picking nits, it has an increased expansion ratio, not compression ratio, we are just used to Otto cycle engines where they are equal. The Prius has a 13:1 expansion ratio, but only a 8:1 compression ratio. I would expect similar for the Pacifica Atkinson cycle engine.
(a quick google does not yield the ratios for the Pacifica)
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Same exact reasons as Gas Powered Minivan only getting about 2/3 the MPG as a gas powered Chevy Cruze.
Heavier weight and worse Aero drag.
It's also why most EVs and PHEVs are small cars. Because you need a lot more Expensive batteries to get range anywhere near what the Volt does.
Congrats to FCA for being first to do a plug in Minivan.
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I'd love an article that went into depth on the supply chain emissions differences between a traditional ICE and a Hybrid. I've been tempted to pick up a hybrid for quite a while to help reduce my footprint (would love it if public transit were a realistic option where I live), but while its pretty easy to reason that the footprint using the vehicle is lower, what isn't as apparent is whether the vehicle takes more emissions to produce, and if so, when the break even point is.
It seems reasonable to assume that adding a battery (with all of the emissions that go into mining and production for it) and an electric motor on top of an ICE has a bigger impact than just the production of the ICE, but to what extent? If the break even point comes around the vehicle being driven 15k miles, that is clearly in the favor of the hybrid, but if its up around the mileage that the battery starts experiencing significant loss of charge, that makes a hybrid a whole lot less obvious.
Without a fair bit of research on my part its hard for me to answer that question, so I'm hoping to throw the research over to the professionals here at Ars to help out.
It seems reasonable to assume that adding a battery (with all of the emissions that go into mining and production for it) and an electric motor on top of an ICE has a bigger impact than just the production of the ICE, but to what extent? If the break even point comes around the vehicle being driven 15k miles, that is clearly in the favor of the hybrid, but if its up around the mileage that the battery starts experiencing significant loss of charge, that makes a hybrid a whole lot less obvious.
Without a fair bit of research on my part its hard for me to answer that question, so I'm hoping to throw the research over to the professionals here at Ars to help out.
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i am surprised there was no mention that the Pacifica originally was deemed a cross-over vehicle (or minivan in hiding) but is now a full-fledged minivan with zero attempts to hide it as such.
EDIT:
Some fathers had no issue driving it prior as it was a "cross-over". These same guys would shy away from being seen in the Pacifica now, less you appear as the soccer dad hauling the rugrats in a MV.
EDIT:
Some fathers had no issue driving it prior as it was a "cross-over". These same guys would shy away from being seen in the Pacifica now, less you appear as the soccer dad hauling the rugrats in a MV.
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Where in SoCal are your rates that low? I'm jealous! With SDG&E base rate is >20c/kWh and peak/high-tier rates are ~50c/kWh (obviously it varies depending on if you're tiered or TOU, and what TOU plan, etc).
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Two different models with different body types. The first Pacifica was a six-seat, three-row crossover from model years 2004-2008. We currently own a 2008.
The Pacifica nameplate was nonexistent from 2009-16 and then was revived for the replacement for the Town & Country minivan.
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Technically, its a federal-subsidy to the automaker. Why do you think its $6000 more? They know you will apply for the tax credit. So why lower the price? Eventually, this will expire, so it incentivizes the buyer to pay more now, knowing in a year, they will get some back.
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Meh, the price premium isn’t worth it since it will take many years to make up the difference through fuel savings. I guess it’s a decent enough car for people who are willing to pay extra for “I’m saving the planet “ bragging rights, but I’ll stick to combustion engines until hybrids and electrics reach price parity.
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That's surprising. Usually Atkinson engines have a lower CR to improve thermodynamic efficiency (i.e., expansion ratio > compression ratio, where they are equal on an Otto Cycle 4-stroke).
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