Please remove all my posts from the fora

von Chaps

Ars Praetorian
2,186
Subscriptor
I hear all the points people are making, I don't think anyone is unreasonable.
And yet you chose to ignore what's being said. Which is your perogative, of course.

The bottom line is that this is all public on the internet. It always has been. If someone wants to maliciously dig into whatever? They always could. This isn't new, and has nothing to do with AI.
Strange how I preemptively addressed these issues before you even raised them [again]. This is new and it has everything to do with AI. Further, it doesn't have to be "all public on the internet". You are making the decision that it will be this way.

But I seem to be repeating myself. Which is pointless because....

The internet doesn't forget and all that. The whole right to be forgotten thing is about your personal data, not what you've said online that you kinda can't take back.
Either you simply did not read anything I wrote or you are just glossing over it because it contains truths you don't like or won't admit to.

I've made my points. This discussion is not progressing. You can haz teh last word.

👋
 

Aurich

Director of Many Things
37,648
Ars Staff
We're not changing our mind on the basic premise for our public community. That doesn't mean you're being ignored.

If anyone is not comfortable posting in public here any longer that is of course their right. I have explained the process in which I will anonymize your account should you wish to take that option.

Otherwise we will continue to be public, and posts will remain accessible by anyone and anything on the internet who wish to do so, like they always have been. Nothing about this recent deal has changed any of that.
 
I hope I’m not stepping on Aurich’s toes with this response, but here’s how I see the discussion in this thread.

1725388791236.png

The bucket of people more on the alarmist side are seeing that bump and going “this is unacceptable, remove my history from this site” (and the y-axis could also be labeled as “effort required to monetize my internet activity”, although I think that was mostly put to bed by Ars trying to block /civis/ in robots.txt). If you drew the graph yourself, you’d probably draw that bump to be much bigger.

Aurich’s position, which I generally agree with, is “this AI shit sucks, but lets not abandon the things that make this forum work because things got a little shittier”.

Where you (general ‘you’, not a specific poster) fall probably is closely aligned with how big you think that bump is. Personally, I don’t think it’s that big. It’s shitty, but LLMs I think have mostly made the idea of scraping the internet for content more public, not that much more easy. The perception is greater than the actual change in status quo.
 

Aurich

Director of Many Things
37,648
Ars Staff
I hope I’m not stepping on Aurich’s toes with this response, but here’s how I see the discussion in this thread.
All good!

Where you (general ‘you’, not a specific poster) fall probably is closely aligned with how big you think that bump is. Personally, I don’t think it’s that big. It’s shitty, but LLMs I think have mostly made the idea of scraping the internet for content more public, not that much more easy. The perception is greater than the actual change in status quo.
Here's how I feel, just in general, as someone who is very public on the internet under my real name in multiple places, not just Ars.

If someone wants to "come after you" for any reason they can do it. I have experienced it! People have printed my name on a tshirt as part of their campaign. 😂 Offered a $10,000 bounty to have me fired from a project, threatened me online. Shit happens.

Whether or not they can do some kind of AI summary of yours posts is not likely to be all that relevant to anything honestly. I don't know what that would even accomplish. But it doesn't matter because once someone is mad enough to bother they probably already know what you said that they intend to weaponize. Or will simply search for some keywords they know how to leverage.

This isn't some kind of defense of people being shitty, or trying to victim blame. Nobody is "asking for it". It's just the reality of the internet. You are broadcasting your thoughts to the entire world.

If you want to protect your anonymity it's like practicing any other opsec, and is ultimately your responsibility. And will never be perfect against someone who is determined.
 

barich

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
9,970
Subscriptor++
I hear all the points people are making, I don't think anyone is unreasonable.

The bottom line is that this is all public on the internet. It always has been. If someone wants to maliciously dig into whatever? They always could. This isn't new, and has nothing to do with AI.

If you one day run for Senator and then get tapped to be the VP candidate people might dig into your old Venmo notes, find your old blog, dig up whatever. It happens!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/07/30/jd-vance-venmo-blog-digital-footprint-privacy/
It's good to be cognizant of this. The internet doesn't forget and all that. The whole right to be forgotten thing is about your personal data, not what you've said online that you kinda can't take back.

I started posting here in 2000 when I was 15. I had zero understanding of the potential consequences of what I posted and the idea that the internet is forever wasn't yet impressed upon me. I've got no idea what I agreed to to create an account back in the day, but could I even legally have done so at that age?

I don't think there's anything in my old post history that's anything other than awkward, embarrassing, and naive, but I also haven't looked at those posts in a decade or two. If I chose to, and if there was something that could negatively affect my future by being out there, or that could inadvertently personally identify me, I'd really like the ability to do something about it. Yeah, I know it's been crawled and archived and indexed six ways from Sunday. Still, removing or editing the original post ought to be within my control. I understand the desire to preserve conversations as they are, but I think that ship has effectively sailed in a variety of ways:

  • Any number of old links and embedded images no longer work
  • The archival of the VR has prevented me from seeing some of my own posts and the conversations associated with them, which belies the dedication to preserving the forum history a bit (I think, for example, that I came out as gay on Ars in the VR before I did to anyone IRL, but I have no way to go back and look now). It's also, I think, not a great look that Ars is willing to disable access to content that it finds problematic, but doesn't afford its users the privilege to do the same.
  • Quotes and emoticons from old posts are super broken (everything that was migrated from OpenTopic/Infopop, maybe?)
  • Changed usernames and deleted users make identifying who's responding to who difficult since quotes contain the old usernames

I don't actually expect the policy to change, but these are my two cents.
 

Aurich

Director of Many Things
37,648
Ars Staff
If there's a post that has overly personal information just ask, we'll edit it, as we've done for people always. It's not a common request, because people don't usually post an address or something that blatant, but I've still gotten plenty of those over the years. It's not a big deal, and we're happy to do it.

It will only do so much, but we'll do what we can.
 
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fil

Ars Legatus Legionis
11,220
Subscriptor++
The Lounge and Soapbox have always been public and indexed. The VR was not, it required a login to view and was not crawled (in theory). That’s the difference.
Yes, and up until recently the VR was fully viewable by anyone logged in. Now it's not, because you've updated your approach in a reasonable way based on changing circumstances. What some of us are asking you to do is to consider another modest change in approach based on changing circumstances.

You're of course right that the Lounge/SB/BR have been openly viewable and therefore past posts there are already indexed, LLM'd etc. But the past isn't everything, there's also the present and the future. At least some of us long-time posters are feeling less comfortable going forward with the approach that was used in these fora in the past. There's also the issue of goodwill and trust between subscribers/participants and the owners of the site. Your (and others') presence in conversations goes a long way on that front, but considering making changes as circumstances is another way to earn that goodwill. Then there's a simple reality that forums like the SB and Lounge don't really work if people don't feel comfortable posting anything controversial (say something they wouldn't write into a widely-distributed email at work). The sort of slow death that happened in the VR may happen also in those forums if you don't take steps to make people feel comfortable posting the kinds of material that keeps those fora lively, interesting, and (somewhat at least) unique.
 

Aurich

Director of Many Things
37,648
Ars Staff
Yes, and up until recently the VR was fully viewable by anyone logged in. Now it's not, because you've updated your approach in a reasonable way based on changing circumstances. What some of us are asking you to do is to consider another modest change in approach based on changing circumstances.

You're of course right that the Lounge/SB/BR have been openly viewable and therefore past posts there are already indexed, LLM'd etc. But the past isn't everything, there's also the present and the future. At least some of us long-time posters are feeling less comfortable going forward with the approach that was used in these fora in the past. There's also the issue of goodwill and trust between subscribers/participants and the owners of the site. Your (and others') presence in conversations goes a long way on that front, but considering making changes as circumstances is another way to earn that goodwill. Then there's a simple reality that forums like the SB and Lounge don't really work if people don't feel comfortable posting anything controversial (say something they wouldn't write into a widely-distributed email at work). The sort of slow death that happened in the VR may happen also in those forums if you don't take steps to make people feel comfortable posting the kinds of material that keeps those fora lively, interesting, and (somewhat at least) unique.
Locking down the Soapbox and Lounge to logged in users only is not a modest change. It's a massive change, that will signal that we're done even pretending to keep the forum alive in 2024.

If you're not comfortable posting to a public forum then don't post to one. We're not going to close the doors behind people, essentially locking out everyone new, all for some illusion of privacy that still won't exist.

Either this is a place that people from around the world post to, or it's not. It's trivial for anyone who wants to scrape our forum to simply make a log in. It won't protect anyone who's not comfortable.
 

fil

Ars Legatus Legionis
11,220
Subscriptor++
Locking down the Soapbox and Lounge to logged in users only is not a modest change. It's a massive change, that will signal that we're done even pretending to keep the forum alive in 2024.
Ok, I guess this (the last part after the comma) is where the disconnect is. I would've thought that responding to user feedback by limiting viewing access would be a signal that you are trying to keep these fora alive by indicating that you respect the desires of those who actually contribute to the fora and make them what they are (now I acknowledge we don't have anything like good data on whether that's a majority view, just that it's what's been suggested here and a couple other places). When I go back and read old threads the fraction of long-time users who have either been banned (why lifetime bans rather than a 6 month cool-off or something I've never understood, but that's another topic) or have deleted their accounts is now quite substantial. It seems like something has to change, or the dwindling is just a matter of time.

But it sounds like there's something important that I'm missing here. How is it that you think requiring an account to read the Lounge/SB would kill them? Is it that people coming in responding to searches matter (I don't think I've personally ever had a google search return an Ars forum post but I suppose that's possible and might be significant in ways I'm not realizing)? Is it that being able to read those particular fora is essential in some way to drive people to create accounts?
If you're not comfortable posting to a public forum then don't post to one.
I think we all understand that, but we also see that a lot of public fora are dying and some of us at least are thinking some changes might help save Ars fora (I realize you've thought about this way more than I have and have more information available to you as well, hoping you can share some of it).

We're not going to close the doors behind people, essentially locking out everyone new, all for some illusion of privacy that still won't exist.
But you're not locking them out. They had to have accounts and be logged in to participate in any case. And the front page discussions and all the other fora (and thread titles for SB/Lounge could be seen too) give lots of sampling of what signing up has to offer.


Either this is a place that people from around the world post to, or it's not. It's trivial for anyone who wants to scrape our forum to simply make a log in. It won't protect anyone who's not comfortable.
Most of us here are pretty technically knowledgeable, but are still requesting this change. It's not because we don't understand that someone determined to scrape info or stalk/spy on people in ways that break norms/rules can be stopped by this. It's rather some combination of stopping the rule-following scrapers, making it a bit harder for others, and also building goodwill between forum owners and forum participants.
 

Aurich

Director of Many Things
37,648
Ars Staff
Ok, I guess this (the last part after the comma) is where the disconnect is. I would've thought that responding to user feedback by limiting viewing access would be a signal that you are trying to keep these fora alive by indicating that you respect the desires of those who actually contribute to the fora and make them what they are (now I acknowledge we don't have anything like good data on whether that's a majority view, just that it's what's been suggested here and a couple other places). When I go back and read old threads the fraction of long-time users who have either been banned (why lifetime bans rather than a 6 month cool-off or something I've never understood, but that's another topic) or have deleted their accounts is now quite substantial. It seems like something has to change, or the dwindling is just a matter of time.

But it sounds like there's something important that I'm missing here. How is it that you think requiring an account to read the Lounge/SB would kill them? Is it that people coming in responding to searches matter (I don't think I've personally ever had a google search return an Ars forum post but I suppose that's possible and might be significant in ways I'm not realizing)? Is it that being able to read those particular fora is essential in some way to drive people to create accounts?
Your account is 22 years old. So I don't know what you remember.

But why did you make an account at all if you can recall? Why did you start posting in the Lounge?

I know I still remember. I read posts there and felt left out, I wanted to participate.

If we hide everything until you're already past the gate, why would you bother to go past the gate at all in other words? You don't even know what you're missing or if you care.

It's a huge barrier to new people, and it doesn't actually solve anything. That's the issue, and why I don't consider it a fix for anything. In one of these threads I posted that old graphic about pirates vs DVD buyers, where the point was that pirates get to just watching a movie, and people who pay have to sit through the unskippable trailers etc. It's the same thing, we punish people with good intentions, and don't do a thing to hurt those who aren't paying attention to the rules.
 
D

Deleted member 92645

Guest
Hello @Aurich I took a couple of days to think about this, and I took the decision to ask you to close my account and anonymize my posts.

The AI saga is a big part of it, but I also think it would be better for me to step down my online presence. Anyway, most of my posts were emotional flippant one-liner replies and didn't contribute much to the discussions :)

I want to take this opportunity to say that you make a very good job of moderating these forums, even if I had some disagreement in the past ;)

I'll continue to read Ars, but don't want to contribute anymore.

Thank you.
 

1FX

Ars Tribunus Militum
3,552
Your account is 22 years old. So I don't know what you remember.

But why did you make an account at all if you can recall? Why did you start posting in the Lounge?

I know I still remember. I read posts there and felt left out, I wanted to participate.

If we hide everything until you're already past the gate, why would you bother to go past the gate at all in other words? You don't even know what you're missing or if you care.

It's a huge barrier to new people, and it doesn't actually solve anything. That's the issue, and why I don't consider it a fix for anything. In one of these threads I posted that old graphic about pirates vs DVD buyers, where the point was that pirates get to just watching a movie, and people who pay have to sit through the unskippable trailers etc. It's the same thing, we punish people with good intentions, and don't do a thing to hurt those who aren't paying attention to the rules.
This is actually an interesting hypothesis that could be informed at least by inference from actual data that you should have access to, I believe.

Do genuine new posters appear to gravitate to the Lounge and Soapbox? Are other areas a bigger draw? What degree of difference does there appear to be?

For myself, the initial draw was to the front page comments, and technical discussions about the forefront of science and tech. I'll also note that "hiding everything" is not the request. And as to what it might solve? We've already seen plenty of posters requesting deletion in this thread... Anecdotes perhaps, but please let the evidence that you have be your guide.
 
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fil

Ars Legatus Legionis
11,220
Subscriptor++
Your account is 22 years old. So I don't know what you remember.

But why did you make an account at all if you can recall?

Well, I do have to look pretty far back through the haze of time, but what I recall is basically this:

I was a reader of Ars pretty much from its inception in 1998. I remember reading Caesar and Hannibal explaining their vision for Ars, and I generally liked what I saw, thought it was an interesting set of ideas and people.

In the early years of the fora (and the front page for that matter) there was a heavy emphasis on building Windows gaming boxes and playing Windows games. I was a unix at work, Mac at home person in those days, so those discussions didn't really catch my interest. What I was interested in was the convergence of unix and MacOS that the merger of Apple and NeXT brought. The combination of the Siracusa OS X articles (and related content), and the creation of the Mac Ach in 2001 (or so?), which quickly became a leading forum for discussion OSX and related hardware, is what drove me to sign up for an account here, in 2002 (the immediate trigger was a future hardware discussion I thought I could add something to) and the first thread I created was a BF thread comparing 3 different platforms for a hardware purchase.

My "Eras tour" through the Ars fora looks something like this:
1998-02 - no account, just reading, primarily tech and science content
2002-05 - occasional poster on mostly pretty specific technical topics (mostly Ach & BF)
2005-15 - posting primarily on tech industry trends, higher level, lots of predictions (still mostly BF & Ach)
2016-now - the convergence of the crazy 2016 election and the end of the mobile predictions for 2015 thread (and the tech industry getting a bit boring) changed me to a primarily Soapbox poster
Why did you start posting in the Lounge?
Well you'll note there's no Lounge era above. My first post to the lounge came well over a decade after I first signed up, in 2015 (I think). Lounge posts are a very small fraction for me, and mostly focus on sports or movies/TV. I didn't participate in the early lounge (and don't think I ever posted in the VR, though I can't check my memory on that), nor in many lounge threads that were very personal.


I know I still remember. I read posts there and felt left out, I wanted to participate.
For me it was the tech content and tech fora that drew me in. It took a long time before I had the interest or comfort level to post in the SB or Lounge (or even read them much). I realize that's only one data point, but it certainly wouldn't have affected my trajectory at all if SB/Lounge required a login to view.

If we hide everything until you're already past the gate, why would you bother to go past the gate at all in other words? You don't even know what you're missing or if you care.
Not talking about hiding everything, just require a login for a couple fora that are more personal/sensitive, and not hiding them from anyone who can post here, as posting requires an account.

I would expect most of your users these days have their first post on front page threads, is that right?

I would think the combo of the front page discussions and all the tech fora would be enough to get people to take the easy step of creating an account.
It's a huge barrier to new people, and it doesn't actually solve anything.
The first part I don't really see - participation in any forum here requires an account, so getting one to see some of the more sensitive content doesn't seem like much of a barrier.

As for 'doesn't solve anything' or 'horse is already out of the barn', you could say the same about the VR situation but you made a well-motivated change there.

You can see in this thread (and elsewhere) that some of your most prolific posters aren't happy with the status quo and are requesting you consider this specific change.

For my part, this isn't really about me personally, except insofar as I really do think making this change will help the SB and Lounge survive into the future and remain vibrant. I agree about the importance of new users, but the reality is that it's your old reliable users who primarily keep those fora interesting places to visit, and several of them have already left, and others are unhappy with the status quo.....


That's the issue, and why I don't consider it a fix for anything. In one of these threads I posted that old graphic about pirates vs DVD buyers, where the point was that pirates get to just watching a movie, and people who pay have to sit through the unskippable trailers etc. It's the same thing, we punish people with good intentions, and don't do a thing to hurt those who aren't paying attention to the rules.
I really don't see how requiring a sign in to view some of the more sensitive fora when you already require a sign-in to actually participate in any of the fora (ie post) amounts to punishing anyone. IMHO it amounts to at least making some effort to protect semi-sensitive content (not so much past as future) and to listen to your users.

And requiring a login does create at least a speed bump for scrapers - they'll at least have to dedicate some effort specific to Ars to get things going (and there are additional things you could do on your end to make it inconvenient for them).
 
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chalex

Ars Legatus Legionis
11,583
Subscriptor++
Do genuine new posters appear to gravitate to the Lounge and Soapbox? Are other areas a bigger draw? What degree of difference does there appear to be?
There aren't any new posters because the forums are dying. Closing them off from being read by outsiders will kill them even faster. All you have left is a small group of people who have been talking to each other for 20yrs+ and the group just gets smaller and smaller.

Maybe another philosophical disconnect here is the efficacy of robots.txt, it sounds like some posters are saying, "please make sure that my old posts are only readable by actual humans and not by any machines", which of course is not technically possible. And IMO even requiring login is the same thing, it's not like an AI agent can't easily create a new forum account.
 

diabol1k

Ars Tribunus Militum
1,583
Moderator
There aren't any new posters because the forums are dying. Closing them off from being read by outsiders will kill them even faster. All you have left is a small group of people who have been talking to each other for 20yrs+ and the group just gets smaller and smaller.

Maybe another philosophical disconnect here is the efficacy of robots.txt, it sounds like some posters are saying, "please make sure that my old posts are only readable by actual humans and not by any machines", which of course is not technically possible. And IMO even requiring login is the same thing, it's not like an AI agent can't easily create a new forum account.
idk, i bet that AI agent can't pick all of the squares that contain a bicycle.
 

chalex

Ars Legatus Legionis
11,583
Subscriptor++

NervousEnergy

Ars Legatus Legionis
10,999
Subscriptor
The types of conversations that would not be wanted today, like the babe and skin threads or explicit sexual exploits, have not been posted there in years.
And those threads were, of course, the only good reason to visit that forum. I miss it so.

I never visit this forum. I was attracted to do so by an offhand comment from SunRaven about a thread here regarding her popularity (or lack thereof), and I wanted to find it and voice my strong support for her (love her moderation), while possibly mildly trolling her at the same time. Win/win.

This may really annoy some folks, but this is the funniest thread I've seen in a long time. And I lived/posted through the LLcoolJ and Alex Starr era. The 'old man shakes fist at clouds' vibe is STRONG here.

"We are OpenAI. Your way of life as you've known it is over. Lower your Robots.txt files and surrender your fora data to us. We will add your juvenile opinions and shitposting skills to our own. Resistance is futile. You have already been assimilated.'

I will now leave this depressing and ridiculously self-important thread that I never should have visited in the first place, and go back to the relative sanity of the Soap Box, where I can enjoy watching people push SunRaven's buttons.