MacOS X... is it the GUI or the technology?

DrPizza · Dec 27, 1999

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Now you are cheating I asked you twice to do this, and all you have done is reverse it on me. But I will oblige. The list I can think of off the top of myhead: I can change the overall theme/appearence (the actual themes need to be downloaded)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What precisely do these alter? From memory, Windows themes (can) alter icons, mouse pointers, backgrounds, sound effects, and colour schemes. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Change the highlight and variation colors<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And that's it... Windows can do that, and then some. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can choose the 'large' system font, the 'small' system font, and the 'views' font. I can make them the same or different, and adjust the size of the 'views' font which is used on the lists and icons.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Windows can do that, and then some. Practically every font (the big exception being badly written programs that specify their own fonts) can be altered. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can choose to smooth, or not, all fonts on the screen. I can pick a desktop pattern, and/or a desktop picture. I can easily add to or change these selections, or make new ones. Desktop picture can be made to fit, center, tile, or scale to the screen. I can pick a selection of Pictures and a random one will be selected everytime I boot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Windows can do that, except random pictures need third party stuff. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can have sounds for menu operations, as well as window, control, and finder operations. I can pick any combination of these four. I can download more sound sets as I want.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Windows can do that, and can have custom sounds for any application that chooses to implement them (any application can insert entries into the sound dialogue box, and use them). Any event (it seems) can have a user customizable sound event attached, configurable through the standard dialogue box, just as long as the program developer bothers. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can put scroll arrows together or top/bottom, and change the slide button to be proportional.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's up to the program developers on Windows. Having the buttons at the bottom, and enabling| |disabling proportional buttons would, AFIAK, require custom scroll bars to be written by the application developers, but the location of the scroll bars (left of window or right of window) seems to be application dependent. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can turn windowshading on or off.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That needs third party software. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can change any and all icons with a simple copy and past. I can download new ones, or make them myself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Depends on which icons. Some icons (e.g. the various filetype icons) can be changed from Windows. Some (e.g. 'specials' like the Recycle Bin) need either certain versions of Windows (Win98 lets you change a few) or alterations to the registry (e.g. for the Control Panel icon). Some icons (those in program executables/libraries) need third party tools to manipulate. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can make pop-up folders filled with files or alias's<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Pop-up from where? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can change the time it takes for spring loaded folders to open.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Windows has no spring loaded folders, because they're not so necessary (because of the tree-view file navigation). I should imagine that if there's any need for them then someone will have written a third party program to do that. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can arrange for a specific app to open all of certain files (ie. jpeg) or have the OS ask me each time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Windows can do that. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can have each folder open with small icons, big icons, list, or buttons. (this includes the pop-up folders.) I can arrange them in various orders, on a grid, or not; and change the spacing for the grids.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Windows can do that, but it uses a universal grid (one that's used throughout Windows; you can alter its spacing, but that altered spacing is used everywhere). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can use the normal finder, or select a simplified one for newer users.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My Computer vs. Explorer tree view, 'hide files with this that and the other extension' vs. show all files, toolbar vs. no toolbar. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>When choosing list, I can set a standard to use relative date, calculate folder size, one of three icon sizes, any font size, and show any or all of seven different pieces of info. This will become the default, but any folder can be changed if I so desire.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Some of these can be done, some cannot. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In any folder showing lists, I can change how much space each column is given.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That counts as customization? I thought that was standard for any column of data. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Button and Icon views can be 'defaulted' in a similar way, and individual folders can be changed at will.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yep, that can be done in Windows too. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can color code files using labels that I can assgn various meanings to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That can be done, kinda. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can modify the 'apple' menu to include various items and folders to ease and speed my tasks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That can be done in Windows, with drag 'n' drop and all that kind of thing. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The apple menu can use,or not, submenus.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You could potentially turn off most submenus on the Start Menu, but it's unlikely that you'd want to. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can place the control strip anywhere on the screen sides and move the modules about, as well as remove and add modules at will.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The control strip has no direct Windows counterpart. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can remove, or not, the application strip, and place it anywhere I want. In either full size or reduced.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is like the taskbar, I guess, in which case it can be placed in a number of places, but not floating free-form in the middle of the screen. Again, though, no direct comparison can be made. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The application icon can be changed from full name to icon, and anywhere in between.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No direct comparison. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can assign folder actions to occur anytime I use a certain folder. (evertime I put something in folder A, it copies it onto folders B,C,D. Or closes all sub-folders when it is closed, or will open all files with the appropriate label when that folder is opened.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Closing sub-folders can be done, as for the rest, I'd imagine that needs third party software that I'm not sure exists. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can have certain apps run automatically at startup, or shut down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No big deal. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>(This is cool) I can put in a DVD, and play it *as the desktop picture* Yep, you can have the movie play in the background and still have total access to the icons and menus etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I could have any full-screen DVD player fasten it 'behind' everything, but fastening it behind needs third party software. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Using spoken commands, and having the Mac speak things. (warnings, menues etc.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Requires third party software, or a freely downloadable MS add-on for Windows that seems to ship with Win2K. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Keep track of recent apps, documents, and servers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Documents and servers, yes, apps, no. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Keep shortcuts to servers and printers on desktop. (or folder.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I can do that, but I don't see it as a 'feature', just consistency (anything can have a shortcut, and a shortcut can live anywhere). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Title bar icons, when a folder is open, there is an icon in the titlebar that can be used jsut like the folder icon. You can drag it to the trash put it in another folder, or add things to it. All while keeping the folder open.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Can't do that. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Synchonize files in various folders.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sounds like a Briefcase. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Protect the system folder Protect the applicatin folder<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Define 'protect'. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can make the desktop disappear when in the background. (finder windows, icons, etc.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't quite get what this means. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>warn if improper shutdown, or not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Scandisk can be set to always run, never run, or warn+run. That's the closest equivalent. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Check memory at startup , or not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's veering on not being a MacOS function. The issue is confused by the fact that parts of MacOS live in hardware (boot ROMs), whereas PCs are OS agnostic, and don't have any part of their OS in ROM (except for certain custom PCs, like some older HP portables which had Win3.1 and Office in ROM, and used something called 'XIP' (eXecute In Place) to run programs direct from ROM, which allowed Word, Win3.1, and Excel to run simultaneously on a computer with 2 Mb of RAM). On a PC the memory check (such as it is -- proper memory checking takes hours) is a BIOS function, not a Windows function, and is enabled| |disabled from the BIOS. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can tell it to default saves to various places, including what ever was used last.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Per application, not done by 'Windows'. Though the location of 'My Documents' can be altered, which will affect any program that defaults to 'My Documents'. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can pick one of several keyboard layouts (swedish, finnish, etc.) As well as select the key repeat speed, and repeat delay.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yep, and change 'em on the fly, and change 'em with a keyboard shortcut. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The mouse uses *proportional* speeds, way cool.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Dynamic mouse pointers, had that for ages, tho' it might be driver dependent (it's hard to tell, as all the machines I have here have value added drivers, and all have mouse acceleration). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can pick what to use as a startup disk.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> On a PC that's a BIOS, not an OS, function. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The trash can ask before deleting, or not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Windows can do that.OK. A great many of the things you can do Windows can do too, without third party software.Windows allows (IME) greater alterations of, say, colour schemes, fonts, and sound events. IMO, these are 'more important' bits of customizability than the things that Windows requires third party software to do -- most Macs I've used doesn't use many of the things that you say can be altered (the only thing people seem to change is the beep noise (Wild Eeep or Boing or whatever) and the highlight colour), whereas on the Windows machines I use, people change the colour scheme (not just the highlight -- fonts and button colours and menu colours and everything like that) and the sound effects (that alter a whole host of sounds; loads of different events).IMO, whilst Windows might need third party software for some things that MacOS does, Windows covers the core customizability options far better than MacOS.The command line is, for many things, just plain faster. Certain things, like pinging and telnetting sites, tracerouting sites, DNS queries, checking IP configuration, can be done faster from the CLI than the GUI. On a Mac, it doesn't seem obvious (which is as good, IMO, as not being possible) how to change a number of things to do with audio, video, and networking.For instance, I don't know where to change the CD player used to play music in a way that actually works (something that still hasn't been resolved in spite of a fair bit of effort). I don't know where to alter such things as the MTU for the various network connections. There are other niggling things that I can't find in obvious places, but (as is typical) I can't remember them -- mainly because I just gave up on them.

DrPizza · Dec 28, 1999

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Sorry to disappoint you. But a lot of that is not Mac applicable<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, all of it could be, except for WINS. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I am not sure what some of this means, but I assume it has to so with viewing you computer as a web site, which is a point I gave, so the rest doesn't apple. What do you mean by toolbars in windows?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Get an Explorer/My Computer window open. You can choose for it to either have a toolbar or not have a toolbar. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Why need monitor type? Oh yeah, macs are PnP<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And until recently needed proprietary monitors. Now, since many monitors are flat out incapable of fully describing what they can and cannot manage, all the PnP in the world isn't going to help the computer determine what a monitor is capable of. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I am not sure about acceleration rate, but we have, or would not benefit from, the rest.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, you would benefit from it. You would benefit from the ability to change your display adaptor, or your monitor type, or your refresh rate. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>(And colorsync does a better job.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So what? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>what do you mean by animating windows etc?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> They shrink and grow when you minimize/maximize them, that kind of thing. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Well, I am not sure if you are saying you can change each of these individually, or if changing a scheme can effect each of these things.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yep, each and every one of them can be individually and independently changed, which people love to do, which you simply can't do on a Mac. Some of the other things you can customize are irrelevent, because people don't seem to do them. People *do* however change these things. There are a few things that people love to change. These are some of them, and you can't change them on a Mac. I would argue that these bits of cosmetic customizability are in some way more important than whatever other bits of cosmetic customizability the Mac offers, for the simple reason that people *use* these bits of customizability, but the things you've listed for the Mac just don't get done -- they have no value to users. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>From what I undstand of what you mention, macs can do some of it, and needs 3rd party for some, and some doesn't applly (inactive menu stuff, ours disappear.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh, and if we want inactive menus to disappear, that is, of course, only a third party utility away. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>AFAIK macs don't ship with screen savers anymore, since screens don't need them anymore.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> How do you lock the screen then, to stop people seeing what's on them?You might have your Applescript; I don't honestly know how it compares to, say, using WSH, or running bash or sh or ksh or perl (to name but four) in Windows. [This message has been edited by PeterB (edited December 28, 1999).]

DrPizza · Dec 28, 1999

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can change anything in my window manager. Anything. From colors and font<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I can do that in Windows. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>and the appearance,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And that. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>texture,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And that. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>and placement of titlebars and buttons,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And that. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>right down to the very behaviour of those buttons.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And that. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It can all be defined right in my window manager's config file.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It can all be defined right in WindowBlinds' config files. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And if that fails, I can just change the window manager. I have at least four other window managers that came on the Slackware CD to choose from.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I can change to a different shell. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And if none of those have the feature I'm looking for (and one of them is Enlightenment, so not having the feature is pretty darned unlikely),<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There was a project to have Enlightenment for Win32, I don't know if it's still actively developed. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I have the source code to all those window managers, so I can add the feature in and compile my own custom version of the window manager.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Heh. Some of the shells for Windows are open source. Some are not. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Beat that, if you can.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Almost there, really. Not the open source bit, but all the appearance things, no problem. Unless there are some that you've not mentioned.

DrPizza · Dec 29, 1999

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yeah, but you had to go to third-party software for some of it. I'm talking stuff that fvwm2, Slack's default window manager (well, it was the default, anyway... Slack has switched to KDE/kwm now) is capable of.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> IMO, the various window managers are all 'third party'. I guess it's somewhat murky, but they are't written by Slack, they're just distributed with it. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And except for a couple of things (wins, netbios, gateway) the rest is available (I am honestly not sure what gateway does, so it may be available, and my network knowledge is not tops, so I may have an error, but we are getting into OS capabilities and not configuration, you don't want me saying that windows can't do appletalk.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And with that, I think I'll choose to ignore you. A gateway isn't Windows-specific. NetBIOS isn't Windows specific (kinda). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Again, like a lot of the stuff that windows does that mac can't, it deals with the "browser" look<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No, you're talking out of your arse. The toolbar has been a configurable option since the Chicago was in beta. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I have not had a lot of experience with macs and too many different kinds of monitors, most of the macs can do most of the monitor adjustments in software (positioning, geometry, etc.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Many monitors can't do that. Many monitors cannot reliably describe their capabilities to the computer to which they're attached. PnP won't help, because the monitors just can't report that information. If you attach a regular monitor to a Mac, there's no guarantee that the Mac will know the capabilities of the monitor. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You misunderstand my quote, either we have it (refresh rate, color depth) OR would not benefit from it (display adaptor, monitor type) If you can explain why I need to configure my display adaptor, I would be willing to listen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Monitor type is worthwhile because there are lots of monitors out there, with lots of different capabilities, and a lot of the time there's no way for the monitor to accurately describe its capabilities to the host computer. If you wish to run your monitor below its maximum capabilities, that's fine, but I don't. If you had a choice of video cards, then you might wish to be able to configure 'em independently, and use their card-specific options -- for instance, my video card has a value-added driver that enhances Windows' own dialogue box by allowing me to (say) toggle VSync. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>One of the advantages of applescript is you can assign it to folders to make folder actions. (When folder A is opened, open any documents labeled red.) older actions can be triggered by folders openning, closing, putting stuff in, or out, or moving, etc. Likewise, applescript can interact with the GUI. *AND* it is a LOT easier to learn and use.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, Windows can do that; it can have events automatically run when a folder is viewed/closed, that kind of thing. And WSH can control all manner of applications automagically. It probably not as easy as AppleScript, but it's probably more powerful, and is language independent. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>How do you change the icons in windows? I was trying to do it but could not figure it out. (And this is something mac users do a lot, and most windows users don't seem to.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Which icons? The mechanism used depends on the icon you want to change.

DrPizza · Dec 29, 1999

Oh knackers, the damn line dropped and my message went with it. How amusing.Anyway, Resteves, my reply was for you.A gateway is where a computer sends any TCP/IP packets that don't belong on the same subnet as that machine. It's vital (I believe) for a TCP/IP network to work in a reasonable manner. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I asked what was meant by the toolbar, and the answer I was given related it to the 'browser' look. I may have been talking out of someone elses arse<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Bzzzt. Liar, or else incapable of reading.You said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I am not sure what some of this means, but I assume it has to so with viewing you computer as a web site, which is a point I gave, so the rest doesn't apple. What do you mean by toolbars in windows?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Our survey said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Get an Explorer/My Computer window open. You can choose for it to either have a toolbar or not have a toolbar.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That was my original reply. Where did I mention Web View? I did not.Hard drive icons can be changed uniformly from the standard Windows dialogue box for changing icons, as can folders icons, as can data file icons.Individual hard drive icons can be changed by dropping an autorun.ini file into the root of the hard drive, containing two lines of text (I think), one saying something or other, the other saying the name of the icon that you wish to use.Individual folder icons are somewhat more involved; they basically require you to tell Windows that you wish to customize the folder, and then you tell it to use a custom folder icon.I can give more detail when I get back up to my computer upstairs, instead of my dad's computer attached the modem.

DrPizza · Dec 31, 1999

CodeWarrior/Win32 + Pascal == PITA. It changes the link order of the libraries the whole time, which stops it compiling, and occasionally the linker just bombs. It's buggy, MetroWerks/Motorola know it's buggy, our university got free copies of it just to help them debug it, but it's a crock-load of shit.I hate it with a passion.Apparently C++ is just as bad, but we're not allowed C++ because it might be too hard for some of the boneheads in the class.

DrPizza · Jan 3, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What version of CW r u using,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The most recent, I'd imagine. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>and have u applied the patches that were made available last month or so ago.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I have no idea, and I couldn't apply them even if I wanted to, because they ain't my computers -- they're university machines, and I don't have admin rights. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What good cross platform IDE r there apart from CW<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Of course, that assumes that CodeWarrior is a good IDE. I tell you one thing, it ain't a good IDE in its Win32 incarnation. Aside from the bugs, it's nothing *like* as nice to use as Visual Studio.Frankly, I'd rather use a competent text editor and command-line compilers than I would CodeWarrior.

DrPizza · Jan 6, 2000

CodeWarrior might be the best IDE on the Mac, but it isn't the best IDE of all.Something like Visual Studio is a far better IDE.

DrPizza · Jan 7, 2000

Visual Studio unintuitive?You must be joking, right?(Dammit. That's the second time in a many days that I've sounded like Shania Twain.)It's lovely. You have your source down the middle of the screen, the class viewer/file viewer on the left, the the help pane on the right, with the compiler/linker output at the bottom of the screen. It's brilliant.It's a doddle to use.

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MacOS X... is it the GUI or the technology?

DrPizza

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