Mac = F$&K!!

resteves · Dec 22, 1999

Venture <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> We have just debated his denigration of the file copy function in NT compared to Mac, where the only way he could have prepared his evidence was to have spent several minutes setting things up so he could make a screen capture of a dialog box. That dialog box, ostensibly a standard NT copy warning (that a file already existed with that name) was created by making copies of folders and then copying them back to their original location. The Mac dialog box was created using a single file. Every tried to make the point that the NT dialog box was complicated, but the dialog box had to deal with situations such as copying all files in the folders overwriting the originals, or copying only those files which were not already present in the target folders. These options are not available when you copy a single file, and the NT dialog box in that instance is as simple as the Mac's. I have prepared enough dialog boxes for screen captures in the manuals and books I've written, and I know that Every did not do what he did by accident. It was a deliberate atempt to mislead, and it was so blatant that he had to withdraw it a few days later (but he still didn't show the correct NT dialog box). A person who does this, and who does it again and again, is not fit to be taken seriously as a platform proponent. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The problem is that you are *ASSUMING* he used only a file on the mac. The entire basis of your above diatribe against his 'dishonesty' is based on YOU deciding something that you have no knowledge over. Now who is being misleading? (actually, I believe you made an honest mistake, but that is more than you would allow for Every) The 'withdrawal' you mention was not one. It was a clarification that NT has different dialog boxes for folders and files. You are using guesses and incorrect assumptions to denegrate another for being misleading, seems somehow hypocritical.

total1087 · Dec 22, 1999

Ah, resteves. Still coming over and nit-picking over a dead horse?Wasn't there an older thread about Every's File copying under MacOS and NT? And it was all about Every being wrong there? ANd before you go about talking crap like you normally do, try to show proof that Venture (or anyone else in that matter) is *ASSUMING* anything. From the look of your post, you have no basis for your "hypocritical" name-calling from the beginning. So just sit down, shut up and actually link up facts to prove your point instead of being a Mac facist and straight out calling people hypocrites without any basis for your name-callings.

Venture · Dec 23, 1999

Sorry, resteves, the screen shot of the Mac dialog box clearly referenced BBEdit installer.I asked you a while ago if that was a file, and you did not reply.In my experience such items are almost always files. They are definitely not multiple folders, which is what was used for the NT screen shot.

hhcccchh-PTOOEY · Dec 23, 1999

"quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Every justifies his bias by saying that he has got to compensate for a fairly ingrained pro-PC anti-mac stance taken by many other sources ------------------------------------------------------------------------That's pretty sad, especially when you consider that Every is more biased than any "PC" publication I've ever seen. It's like he's saying "they're bad, so I'll be even worse to compensate!" Two wrongs, and all that."Yes, I said much the same, bias for any reason weakens your stance... where Every DOES have a valid point, and he often has many, it's all to easy to dismiss them as just his bias showing. I was just trying to give a context for Every's attitude, not excuse it... maybe it's worth noting that Every is not going to put MS or intel out of business, but there was a period where the anti mac-camp stood a strong chance of doing just that to Apple! "One thing I've observed is that Mac people tend to take criticism of Apple rather personally. It's an odd phenomenon."It's not that odd, pro-PC folks do exactly the same thing... as i said, one tends to notice this more from the other side of the fence than from one's own. And as I said, their is a history that partially explains why mac user's are like this: three years ago the was a lot of misinformation being spread by folks who didn't like or use macs that could have killed the platform that alot of us had based our careers around... I couldn't afford to move to, say, NT in terms of hardware or learning curve and for DTP AT THAT TIME the NTplatfrom wasn't up to it and mac was filling the bill just fine. Loss of income and career can make something very personal indeed. If mac failed because it was a bad product from a flawed company, so be it, but the thought of someone who just "didn't like Apple" killing the platform with a bunch of lies used to make my blood boil." The Apple of the "pre-Steve" times deserved immense amounts of criticism; I don't see how anyone could deny that. With this in mind, I don't think that there was really that much anti-Apple bias in the media. Remember, formulating deserved criticism is not being "anti"."Apple as a company was making some very unnerving decisions, but the product was still very good: yet much of this "justified criticism" was aimed at the Apple product as opposed to criticising the companies alarming policies. Fortunately change came before those decisions became terminal for the company... but my point was that alot (not all, but a signifant percentage) of mainstream PC press was NOT 'formulating deserved criticism' but spreading absolutely untrue observations as established fact! And this same logic (that Apple got lots of criticism because it actually did deserve alot of criticism) says that the old mac user arrogance of the late eighties was justified... can you deny that at that time the macOS was alot better than Win3.x? yet that old mac arrogance is something that offends PC folks the most... don't worry, alot of us old timers had the arrogance wooped out of us in the last few years!"Truth be told, my impression is that the media in general is relatively pro-Apple, judging from their reception of products that in my view deserve less accolades, such as the various MacOS releases and the iMac."Yes, I agree the press has been pretty good to Apple of late. I have tried to stress this in my posts: it used to be very bad indeed, but currently it is alot better... but I ask you to remember things like the time (from memory) PCweek compared an early G3 era mac (can't remember if it was a desktop or iMac) against it's PC equivalent, and found the PC much quicker... of course they had switched off the macs graphics card (or rather, according to them, just not switched it on because the delivered state was off and therefore that was the default state for the mac... which was also wrong!). They assumed that the card must have been included merely as a form of hi tech ballast I guess! And then they concluded (from battery of tests that seemed to involve a lot of screen redraw and scrolling) that PCs were twice as fast! When challenged about the graphics card glitch online, did they apologise or ammend the article to explain that mac would have performed better with the machine used with graphics chip enabled? No, they just removed from the article the fact that the macs graphics card wasn't activated so in fact the mac looked more underpowered than ever... this does not seem all that different from what Every is accused of: deceptive bias is/was prevalent from BOTH sides of the fence... and as you said yourself, two wrongs do not make a right!Fortunately forums like this mean that it is getting very difficult for either camp to pull these deceptive stunts because they will be challenged. The trap is that these forums will fall into the same syndrome based on personal ego/agendas rather than a search for objective truth... lets try to resist this trend, eh?"quote:------------------------------------------------------------------------ I have also seen the same knee jerk defense from the PC zealots ... PC alternative I have found it not so good... what can I say? ------------------------------------------------------------------------I have yet to find an area in which this is the case. You appear to have found such a niche in desktop publishing, which is probably just a reflection of the superiority of a particular software product that was written for the MacOS. What most PC people object to is the glorification of Apple hardware and operating systems, which by PC standards are very poor products indeed."OK dude, now I really don't want to pick a fight, but this is what I'm talking about... the idea that macs might have even one area where they are might be superior to PCs has made you bristle. It's only a niche (and it's bigger than just DTP, theres also Video, audio, web graphics and 3D animation... in short content creation!) and even at that it's got be because photoshop or After Effects or whatever runs better on a mac than on a PC... actually much of the technologies that give the mac an edge here ARE Apple OS technologies, eg coloursync and quicktime! Nt is valiantly trying to make inroads here, and gradually they are getting it, but mostly by looking at why macs do so well in these areas and following suit! In terms of hardware, yeah PCs have alot going for them: incredible levels of competion between manufacturers has meant amazing spurts of progress compared to macs (the AMD vs Intel thing is case in point) and very aggressive pricing... but Apple hardware has progressed in leaps and bounds lately as well... OK, form the G3 onwards factory case options have been, er, limited to say the least and the G3 mobo wasn't really as industrial stength as one would like, but also the improvement of PCs has meant that more and more Apple has to directly compete with them to stay in business, so they are not at all the stubborn pldding company that they were... I think on the hardware front macs can be compared to PC and not come off as complete crap. On the sofware side it gets more subjective. MY OPINION: Yeah, NT has alot going for it, and is measurably better than mac on many fronts, but on others Mac is better. and those areas are the ones that matter most to me, if they weren't I would go to NT! For me, configuring, maintaining and troubleshooting on a mac is an easier process than on windows... OK, I use macs more so it makes sense that I would be better at understanding 'em... I tried to understand NT, but it seemed much harder, assuming a level of technical knowledge I didn't have... now a true geek probably wouldn't even notice this, but to a less technical savvy user such as myself mac's hand-holding and simpler approach is a godsend and more than makes up for a more primitive approach to multitasking! Please don't reply about some mac configuration nightmare and how NT is much better, I'm merely referring to my personal experience. FWIW, W2K sounds like it might be alot easier for users like me? I haven't actually seen it yet, is it simple enough for artists of the world?PS I know someone is going to take issue with the 3D comment above and probably the web graphics one too: I work in 3D, I am aware of NTs growing strength, however macs still have a strong role here too. If I was advising someone on how to set up a new 3D workstation, I would probably advise them to choose NT on the strength of some of the software that has recently been ported to it: there are strong rumours of Maya coming OSX, if they're true that would redress the balance somewhat. For DTP and video, mac is still pretty much the best option IMHO. I'm gonna get flamed, aren't I?

IMarshal · Dec 23, 1999

resteves:When are you going to:1) Provide a list of things a Mac does better than a PC. 2) Comment on a technical Every article that you agree with.Time is passing...

IMarshal · Dec 23, 1999

hhcccchh-PTOOEY:I think we both know what Every is up to, so I see no more to discuss there. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Loss of income and career can make something very personal indeed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can see why you would have an emotional stake in your favorite platform. But what about all the other guys who place Apple on a pedestal without having any tangible personal interest in it? What drives a guy like Every to create such an extensive web site of material that, well, parodies itself? I'd say madness, but perhaps you have another explanation. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>the old mac user arrogance of the late eighties was justified... can you deny that at that time the macOS was alot better than Win3.x?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>From a technical standpoint, there wasn't that much to choose from at the time. Both types of machines were, in retrospect, slow and unreliable. MacOS had a prettier interface and a more consistent history, but Windows 3.1 had more and better business software and DOS had all the games. So it was really a wash. I chose to use PC's because that's where the software was and because the platform promised future improvements that weren't in sight from Apple, both in hardware and in software (more industry R&D, alternative OS's, etc.)So no, I don't think Apple user's arrogance was justified then. Maybe in 1989 it was to some extent, but not in 1993. And now it's just an amusing anachronism, given how far behind the Macintosh is both in hardware and in software. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I ask you to remember things like the time (from memory) PCweek compared an early G3 era mac (can't remember if it was a desktop or iMac) against it's PC equivalent, and found the PC much quicker... of course they had switched off the macs graphics card<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I vaguely remember some such thing, and my recollection is that it wasn't quite that way, and the Mac wasn't disadvantaged (how do you switch off a video card, BTW?). I guess our personal biases resolved things differently; a solid link might settle the question.Concerning the larger issue of anti-Apple bias in the media before 1997, I must confess that I still don't see it. What's the incentive? If you have links to copious lists of articles that might reasonably be considered anti-Mac, I'd like to see them.In any case, this is a moot point right now, since in your view the press is now fair and in my view they are decidedly pro-Apple. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>the idea that macs might have even one area where they are might be superior to PCs has made you bristle<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL, I'm hardly bristling.

I have a masters degree in Computer Science and I work as a software developer. As such, I consider that I have an informed view of what constitutes hardware and software quality. And I really don't see a single advantage to owning a Macintosh over a PC. Honestly. For what I do, that is, which is primarily development work. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>much of the technologies that give the mac an edge here ARE Apple OS technologies, eg coloursync and quicktime!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm afraid I don't understand what these technologies provide for you that cannot be provided by Windows or third party software. You'll have to elaborate; I'm a coder, not a designer. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>theres also Video, audio, web graphics and 3D animation... in short content creation!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'll have to disagree with this and state flatly that, a given software package that you may like aside, there's no longer any advantage in these areas to owning a Macintosh. Furthermore, NT is clearly ahead of the MacOS in several areas mentioned here, such as 3D (which OS has a better OpenGL implementation, and better video card support?) <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think on the hardware front macs can be compared to PC and not come off as complete crap<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dollar for dollar the comparison is extremely one sided. And on the other end, the fastest CPU's, the best consumer video cards and sound cards and the SMP motherboards are not available for the Macintosh. Apple may be adopting more and more Intel technology as time passes, but for the most part the hardware gulf is only widening. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>For me, configuring, maintaining and troubleshooting on a mac is an easier process than on windows... OK, I use macs more so it makes sense that I would be better at understanding 'em... I tried to understand NT, but it seemed much harder, assuming a level of technical knowledge I didn't have<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is a fair objection, but if you had been using NT for the number of years you've been on a Macintosh, you'd be seeing it from the other side. I honestly don't see the NT interface as being inherently harder than the Mac interface, or vice-versa. They're pretty damn similar, actually. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>FWIW, W2K sounds like it might be alot easier for users like me? I haven't actually seen it yet, is it simple enough for artists of the world?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's not quite a poet's OS, no. It's like NT with the 98 interface, for the most part. If you get used to it, you'll probably like it, but you'll have to learn your way around, like everything else in life.By the tone of your post, I sense that you're resigned to moving to a PC platform at some point down the line, but you're resisting it. My advice would be to start experimenting and learning your way around a new system, be it NT, W2K, Be, Linux or wherever you think you'll end up. It might not be as bad as you think it'll be.

resteves · Dec 23, 1999

total <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Wasn't there an older thread about Every's File copying under MacOS and NT? And it was all about Every being wrong there? ANd before you go about talking crap like you normally do, try to show proof that Venture (or anyone else in that matter) is *ASSUMING* anything. From the look of your post, you have no basis for your "hypocritical" name-calling from the beginning. So just sit down, shut up and actually link up facts to prove your point instead of being a Mac facist and straight out calling people hypocrites without any basis for your name-callings. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>venture <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Sorry, resteves, the screen shot of the Mac dialog box clearly referenced BBEdit installer. I asked you a while ago if that was a file, and you did not reply. In my experience such items are almost always files. They are definitely not multiple folders, which is what was used for the NT screen shot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Total, don't forget your blood pressure medication, you seem to be running a bit high. The previous thread devolved into people expressing why the PC way was better than the Mac way, but almost nothing to show that Every was actually wrong in what he actually said. As far as proof, The Mac dialog box shows no indication that the item was a folder or a file, yet it was *ASSUMED* that it was a file. That is why I called it an assumption, see the similarity? SO glad to see you adding your normal rants to this thread also.Venture, as it stands BBEDIT installer may be a file or a folder, at this point there is no way to tell. It seems reasonable that it is a file, and something to be questioned. My point is that all the Mac-bashers so quickly assumed that it *had* to be a file, and therefore Every was purposely misleading the public. It may be a file, or not. And it really doesn't matter which one it is, on a Mac you get the same dialog box anyway. Now, you may argue that the PC way is better (different boxes for folders/files, and more options) but that does not make Every wrong for thinking the Mac way is better.What about the NT dialog box makes you think it is multiple folders? To me it just looks like one folder with multiple files inside.

Shallnpotential · Dec 23, 1999

:Video, audio, web graphics and 3D animation...

S I know someone is going to take issue with the 3D comment above and probably the web graphics one tooI'm not going to flame you, but I'll just politely disagree with these points: View image: /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif NT & Linux (and the fading Irix) currently dominate Pro 3d animation workstations and servers. Software such as Lightwave is JUST on it's way to the MacOS as I recall. Many high end graphics cards are not yet available for the Mac. I haven't seen too many high end multiple CPU Mac A/V workstations lately either. Even SGI and Intergraph offer no Mac workstations.Pro Non Linear video editing on Mac machines? I honestly don't know, maybe your correct, but I'll say this: I do semi-pro work, and have used Adobe Premier & Ulead Media Studio Pro 5.2, and there seems to be quite a few more professional hardware compression boards & software suites for NT than for the Mac. I'm skeptical about the web graphics statement. Do you mean the millions of low resolution ads, and simple graphics at any given site? Since they require no color matching, I'm curious why anyone would feel the need to have a Mac for the job. If Mac's do dominate web graphics, then I guess that would say that web graphics aren't the most important part of web content, because as I seem to recall, many modern things like Cold Fusion aren't even available for the Mac. Audio: Yes, Mac's still completely dominate Pro Audio. But a side note: Digidesign, the industry leader, decided to start making it's very top Pro Tools workstation for NT a while ago, as they noticed the huge upsurge in small home/semi-pro NT based studios. They are selling extremely well too. A question: When was the last time you looked at sales of home/semi-pro software/hardware? Maybe I'm incorrect on some of this, but I'd like to see some hard numbers to prove me wrong.

hhcccchh-PTOOEY · Dec 23, 1999

"NT & Linux (and the fading Irix) currently dominate Pro 3d animation workstations and servers. Software such as Lightwave is JUST on it's way to the MacOS as I recall."In the mid to high range, your right NT is coming on strong, but many places still have a strong mac presence also. ILM, for instance, makes serious use of macs... and no, not just for animatics. Naboo, Pod race and Princess Whats-her-faces ship were done in ElectricImage, still pretty much a mac only app (they wrote a Irix port of Camera, EI's renderer, I beleive). LW has been on mac for about since version 5 (18 months ago- admittedly the first port was CRAP!) and Newtek has been talking up the Altivec enhanced LW6 alot of late. C4D is a thoroughly cross platform app (even a Be version I think)... there are a couple of neat mac only apps too... but the lack of high end apps like Maya or Soft or Houdini do hurt the macs case. Like I said, NT is probably a better choice right at this moment, but the mac 3D scene is not that far behind, and the future is looking bright... Many high end graphics cards are not yet available for the Mac. I haven't seen too many high end multiple CPU Mac A/V workstations lately either. Even SGI and Intergraph offer no Mac workstations.Actually, alot of standard PC graphics cards will in fact work in the macs standard PCI (and now AGP) slots... you don't hear about it much though: would this be because of driver issues? Certainly these card makers don't make much effort to sell to mac users, but there is a full range of various iterations of voodoo, for instance, available. SGI and Intergraph don't even offer their own workstations any more! OK, SGI's Irix boxes are hanging in there (there is a RUMOUR that Newtek is dropping it's Irix LW development: that would be a turnip for the books) Interestingly it is not so much the macOS that prevents MP machines appearing as the G3 itself... G4's are eminently MPable and I have a secret hope that 600mhz MP G4 machines might even be announced as soon as Jan's Macworld Expo. Fingers crossed!Pro Non Linear video editing on Mac machines? I honestly don't know, maybe your correct, but I'll say this: I do semi-pro work, and have used Adobe Premier & Ulead Media Studio Pro 5.2, and there seems to be quite a few more professional hardware compression boards & software suites for NT than for the Mac. Did you follow the Avid fracass when they said they were dropping mac Xpress development at the last SIGGRAPH (I think that's where it was announced)? Huge numbers of editors said if it came to choice between Avid and Mac, they'd stick with mac! Media 100 looked to be the big winner, but then after the stockholders nearly sacked the CEO, Avid about faced and committed to the mac again. As most high end Avid systems are still mac based (how Avid must pine for those old 9600s and their 6 PCI slots!), it means that most movies you see from Titanic down were edited on a mac based systems! As you observe, NT is eyeing this area too, but I think mac will retain the market."I'm skeptical about the web graphics statement. Do you mean the millions of low resolution ads, and simple graphics at any given site? Since they require no color matching, I'm curious why anyone would feel the need to have a Mac for the job. If Mac's do dominate web graphics, then I guess that would say that web graphics aren't the most important part of web content, because as I seem to recall, many modern things like Cold Fusion aren't even available for the Mac." I can see no reason why PCs should not be just as good as macs for web graphics... still I guess alot of artists are still mac based, and therefore a lot of this stuff is still done on macs for that reason alone. Who needs Cold Fusion when you've got GoLive anyway!Audio: Yes, Mac's still completely dominate Pro Audio. But a side note: Digidesign, the industry leader, decided to start making it's very top Pro Tools workstation for NT a while ago, as they noticed the huge upsurge in small home/semi-pro NT based studios. They are selling extremely well too. A question: When was the last time you looked at sales of home/semi-pro software/hardware? Maybe I'm incorrect on some of this, but I'd like to see some hard numbers to prove me wrong. I'm not out to bag NT in these areas, just to say that macs are very viable, and may well be superior in some of them. It doesn't have to be either/or you know.And Imarshall, sorry to disappoint, but I am not resigning myself to NT/2K future by any stretch... in fact I dread the idea (mostly because my NT experiences were very frustrating)! But I try to keep an open mind, and I would love to put an NT box in here with all the macs... except if I have the money for a new box there's usually a new mac I want more! Anyway, I'm gone for christmas now! have Merry One yourselves, ya mac hating bastards! (I'd stick one of those cute smiley faces if I knew how!)

The_ABG · Dec 23, 1999

h-p: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I ask you to remember things like the time (from memory) PCweek compared an early G3 era mac (can't remember if it was a desktop or iMac) against it's PC equivalent, and found the PC much quicker... of course they had switched off the macs graphics card<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...and IMarshall too, cuz you mentioned it. View image: /infopop/emoticons\icon_wink.gifI'm also going from memory here, but the article in question was rebutted by good ol' David Every on zdnet.com, where he claimed that the PC Week labs tests were invalid because the iMac's 'graphics acceleration' was turned off. The testers rebutted his rebuttal by stating in no uncertain terms that the MacOS's graphic acceleration was indeed turned on, and that a repeated test didn't change the facts. This didn't stop Every, though. He made a nice little rant on his own site, which of course cannot be rebutted by others. I'd dig up the links, but I don't feel like giving his site any extra hits. Perhaps I can find the zdnet link again.h-p: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Anyway, I'm gone for christmas now! have Merry One yourselves, ya mac hating bastards! (I'd stick one of those cute smiley faces if I knew how!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Try a colon or semi-colon, followed by a right-parenthesis. Geez, haven't you ever used emoticons in your life? View image: /infopop/emoticons\icon_wink.gif I think the Help screen for UBB shows all the possible smileys.[This message has been edited by The_ABG (edited December 23, 1999).]

resteves · Dec 23, 1999

ABGI am not sure if you are thinking about the same article they are, but I remember the one you are mentioning. I read the PC week/mag article and it was missing a few things. I hope you can find the link, but they used old drivers and something else. They even admitted it in the article, but just assumed it wouldn't matter much.Not a well done comparison.

Venture · Dec 23, 1999

"I read the PC week/mag article and it was missing a few things. I hope you can find the link, but they used old drivers and something else. They even admitted it in the article, but just assumed it wouldn't matter much."I guess you must have read that PC Mag on Fantasy Island, because nothing like that was ever in there.Every and others proposed that PC Mag turned off video acceleration. PC Mag said that they ran the tests on the computer as received from Apple and did not change any settings. In fact they re-ran the tests with video acceleration on and off and didn't see any significant difference.PC Mag online also had a couple of pages devoted to debunking Every, and I'm pleased to say they really shafted him - with facts.It wasn't just PC Mag that showed these results: PC World and Windows magazine showed similar results, along with that well-known PC Bigot magazine, Popular Mechanics."Not a well done comparison."Exactly what you would have said had the results come out in favor of the Mac, I'm sure.

resteves · Dec 23, 1999

Venture I note two things:You do not provide any links, yet seem to remember them like you read them only yesterday.You got awfuly quite when it was pointed out that you have jumped to conclusions in regards to Every and the Copy dialogs.As I said before, I would be interested in seeing these articles you mention.

Venture · Dec 23, 1999

"three years ago the was a lot of misinformation being spread by folks who didn't like or use macs that could have killed the platform that alot of us had based our careers around... I couldn't afford to move to, say, NT in terms of hardware or learning curve and for DTP AT THAT TIME the NTplatfrom wasn't up to it and mac was filling the bill just fine."The Mac ceased to be the *only* platform for DTP around 1992 when ATM was introduced for Windows. There were a few advantages, like some Xtensions for Quark and some Photoshop plug-ins that made it better for some people to use the Mac, but for the vast majority either platform would do.But I do think that switching platforms is not trivial (mainly due to the amount of knowledge you have invested in your preferred platform). If you are in a production environment with work coming through constantly, it is very difficult even to upgrade a piece of software in case there are unexpected side-effects.

Venture · Dec 23, 1999

resteves, try this to be going along with. http://www.zdnet.com/products/stories/reviews/0,4161,2144902,00.html

The_ABG · Dec 24, 1999

Venture,Thx for that link to zdnet. I didn't have time to look 'em up cuz they let us all free from the office early today! View image: /infopop/emoticons\icon_wink.gifI know this test was on the original iMac, but it's interesting to note that maxing the vram to 6MB made almost absolutely NO difference in their tests, as shown at http://www.zdnet.com/products/stories/reviews/0,4161,2144896,00.html -- I mention because there was a minor uproar from some Macfans when tests were done with only 2MB vram in the iMac (you know -- like it was out of the box). Thanks again!

total1087 · Dec 24, 1999

resteves: Don't give me that condesending crap. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The problem is that you are *ASSUMING* he used only a file on the mac. The entire basis of your above diatribe against his 'dishonesty' is based on YOU deciding something that you have no knowledge over. Now who is being misleading? (actually, I believe you made an honest mistake, but that is more than you would allow for Every) The 'withdrawal' you mention was not one. It was a clarification that NT has different dialog boxes for folders and files. You are using guesses and incorrect assumptions to denegrate another for being misleading, seems somehow hypocritical<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So, out of the blue you can automatically make this judgement call and say that Venture is using "incorrect assumptions to denegrate another for being misleading"? Since when do you know NT better than us? I still can't see how you can call these facist shots when you haven't even used NT before. [This message has been edited by total1087 (edited December 23, 1999).]

resteves · Dec 24, 1999

Total, What the hell are you talking about. Go scroll through the replies. I made a statement, you had a problem with it, so I clarified. You then *ignored* the clarification and proceeded to quote the original statement again. Since you chose to ignore my clarification I will repeat it, try reading it this time.resteves <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Total, don't forget your blood pressure medication, you seem to be running a bit high. The previous thread devolved into people expressing why the PC way was better than the Mac way, but almost nothing to show that Every was actually wrong in what he actually said. As far as proof, The Mac dialog box shows no indication that the item was a folder or a file, yet it was *ASSUMED* that it was a file. That is why I called it an assumption, see the similarity? SO glad to see you adding your normal rants to this thread also. Venture, as it stands BBEDIT installer may be a file or a folder, at this point there is no way to tell. It seems reasonable that it is a file, and something to be questioned. My point is that all the Mac-bashers so quickly assumed that it *had* to be a file, and therefore Every was purposely misleading the public. It may be a file, or not. And it really doesn't matter which one it is, on a Mac you get the same dialog box anyway. Now, you may argue that the PC way is better (different boxes for folders/files, and more options) but that does not make Every wrong for thinking the Mac way is better. What about the NT dialog box makes you think it is multiple folders? To me it just looks like one folder with multiple files inside. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, he made an assumption (that the mac copy was a file) and used this assumption to denigrate another. I never claimed knowledge of NT, and am not sure how you pulled that out of what I said.If you had such a problem with that statement, why didn't you comment on it the FIRST time you replied to it, and why ignore my clarification. I am also curious what makes these 'facist' shots, or how my response could be relevant to using/not using NT. PS. Venture never has responded to this, either to explain the assumption, or to clear up why he kept saying the NT copy was multiple folders.

resteves · Dec 24, 1999

These were not the articles that I was remembering, sorry about that. I think a case could be made for bias within this comparison, but I do not think it was with malicious intent.Every's second article illustrates his points much better than the first one.

Venture · Dec 25, 1999

resteves:At the risk of having to repeat myself, what exactly do you mean here?"You got awfuly quite when it was pointed out that you have jumped to conclusions in regards to Every and the Copy dialogs."

resteves · Dec 25, 1999

I guess you must have missed this entire reply, so here it is again, my apologies to those that saw it the first time. total quote: Wasn't there an older thread about Every's File copying under MacOS and NT? And it was all about Every being wrong there? ANd before you go about talking crap like you normally do, try to show proof that Venture (or anyone else in that matter) is *ASSUMING* anything. From the look of your post, you have no basis for your "hypocritical" name-calling from the beginning. So just sit down, shut up and actually link up facts to prove your point instead of being a Mac facist and straight out calling people hypocrites without any basis for your name-callings. venture quote: Sorry, resteves, the screen shot of the Mac dialog box clearly referenced BBEdit installer. I asked you a while ago if that was a file, and you did not reply. In my experience such items are almost always files. They are definitely not multiple folders, which is what was used for the NT screen shot. Total, don't forget your blood pressure medication, you seem to be running a bit high. The previous thread devolved into people expressing why the PC way was better than the Mac way, but almost nothing to show that Every was actually wrong in what he actually said. As far as proof, The Mac dialog box shows no indication that the item was a folder or a file, yet it was *ASSUMED* that it was a file. That is why I called it an assumption, see the similarity? SO glad to see you adding your normal rants to this thread also. Venture, as it stands BBEDIT installer may be a file or a folder, at this point there is no way to tell. It seems reasonable that it is a file, and something to be questioned. My point is that all the Mac-bashers so quickly assumed that it *had* to be a file, and therefore Every was purposely misleading the public. It may be a file, or not. And it really doesn't matter which one it is, on a Mac you get the same dialog box anyway. Now, you may argue that the PC way is better (different boxes for folders/files, and more options) but that does not make Every wrong for thinking the Mac way is better. What about the NT dialog box makes you think it is multiple folders? To me it just looks like one folder with multiple files inside.

hhcccchh-PTOOEY · Dec 26, 1999

OK, let me tell you how I remember that whole PCmag iMac test thing. Note, this is NOT based on anything Every wrote, but firsthand experience. I read the ORIGINAL PCmag test and it initially had quite a bit to say about the graphics acceleration being switched off and why this was justified: because that was the default state of the mac... numerous people, myself included posted in that this was odd, of all the new macs I've ever used, I've never had to "switch on" the graphics, and assuming that PCmag unluckily got hold of an iMac where the graphics were somehow disabled, it still seemed a tad unfair to at least not investigate to see whether something was amiss, and just assume that the average user would never switch the graphics back on!as for how the graphics were disabled, I'm afraid I can't remember exactly how they explained this, and I can't check because PCmag altered the article after a couple of days to remove all mention of the status of the macs video acceleration (and of course now the iMacs poor showing now seemed even worse). Alls I can think of is that the ATI drivers were disabled in the extensions manager. I was hoping someone who actually was there would remember the article changing and back me up: don't worry, I won't ask you to take my word for it.PCmag did a rematch, this time with iMac graphics enabled... which is pretty much an admission that they weren't the first time around... and the iMac lost again, but now they (PCmag) had a vested interest in the iMac performing poorly (ie they staunchly defended the origianl tests) and a cynical person might conclude that bias was present again? Do I think the second test was unfair? Actually I don't. The original iMac was very weak graphics wise (and got killed in Acrobat scrolling for this reason) and whilst the 233 G3 chip did well against faster Intel chips, it did lose out, and I beleive the Celeron system was actually slightly cheaper than the iMac... fair enough, outright performance was a nod to the PC (and the article duly noted that much of the iMacs appeal was in it's clean design and simplicity, not outright speed).But I didn't mention this ancient debate to rivive this particular pointless argument, what I was trying to do was find an analogue for Every in the PC camp: PCmags original test was tainted by bias, and this weakened it's credibilty EVEN THOUGH IT'S CONCLUSION WERE BASICALLY SOUND! Thus Every, although clearly mac-biased and this weakens HIS credibilty, is nevertheless quite often correct with his conclusions (IMHO). It is wrong to say if Every says it, it MUST be a mac-zealot lie! And if you do attack him for his pro-mac agenda, it is hypocritical not to subject anti-mac reviews (eg first PCmag test) to the same approach.As an aside, there was another iMac vs PC test (PCweek? Sorry can't remember...) about the same time which again the standard iMac lost... but although it passed without mention in the article, there was an interesting aspect in the performance test tables. The iMac was also tested upgraded to 64mb RAM and 6mb video RAM (I think it was a revision B, that had this latter as standard)... now with 32 mb of RAM the iMac was defeated by both a 400 Celeron and PII in application tests, but with the extra RAM is consistently soundly beat the Celeron (both PCs came standard with 64mb RAM) and fell about halfway between the two chips... and the PII was at that stage the top dog, price-is-no-object Intel processor available (I think it was a 400 as well, but may have been 450)... not bad for a lowly consumer box with a 233 (266?)mhz chip a simple RAM upgrade. Yes, the extra RAM would have made the mac noticably more expensive than the CeleryPC, I just mention to show that those old iMacs were not necessarily all that underpowered.

Venture · Dec 27, 1999

resteves said:"It [BBEdit] may be a file, or not. And it really doesn't matter which one it is, on a Mac you get the same dialog box anyway."Well that sure is an advantage. If you get the same dialog box, maybe Mr. Every should have pointed that out. What will be the next Mac "advantage"? One error message for myriads of errors, rather than Windows pointing out the error and giving you a clue where to fix things? Is lack of information somehow a virtue? Are Mac users really that dumb that they can't take too much info about their problems?"Now, you may argue that the PC way is better (different boxes for folders/files, and more options) but that does not make Every wrong for thinking the Mac way is better."No, it was not a question of Every thinking that the Mac way was better. It was Every pointing out that IN THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES the Windows dialog box was more complex. That isn't opinion, that is an outright lie."What about the NT dialog box makes you think it is multiple folders? To me it just looks like one folder with multiple files inside."Well it would, wouldn't it? You have already said you don't know much about Windows, yet you seem to think that if David Every says something, he must be more correct than I am.However, let me once again try to explain to you where you are wrong.There are three possible scenarios:1. One file is being copied into a folder with a file of the same name.2. One folder with several files is being copied, where several files in the taget folder have the same name as those being copied.3. Several folders with several files in each are being copied, with instances of the same folder and file names.Now as Mr. Every ran away when someone pointed out what he was up to (in other words, he didn't leave the original and explain where he went wrong) you'll have to take this on trust.It is not a single file being copied. In that case, the dialog box names the file, the date, and the size. That's *really* confusing, especially if you have a file that's the most recent and you want to overwrite the original. If you had a Mac, you'd have check this in the folder window; Windows tells you when you copy. The dialog box Every showed was not of this type.So it must be one or several folders. The clue to this is that there is a Yes to All button in the dialog box. The dialog box points out that there are files with the same name in a folder and asks whether you want to continue copying.With a single folder, the options are Yes (continue copying all files), No (do not overwrite files with the same name), and Cancel (stop all copying). This appears to cover all options.When Windows comes up with a dialog box that asks a question that may have to be asked again, it puts in a Yes to All button. Clicking this means that Windows assumes that if this dialog box had appeared in the future, you would have clicked the Yes button again.Let's see what happens if you select multiple folders to copy. Suppose you click Yes. All the files in that folder are copied. Then another dialog box appears with the same questions about another folder. Once again you click yes. But had you clicked Yes to All at the beginning of the process Windows would have copied everything.So the "All" in Yes to All is all folders. It can't be all files, because that is covered by the simple Yes or No buttons. Windows is smart enough not to include a Yes to All button where it isn't needed; it only shows this where the same dialog box will appear again.Therefore, there were multiple folders in Every's example. The folder icon in Windows is very clear. It can't be confused with a file. David Every didn't confuse folders with files. He copied over a bunch of folders, got the dialog box he wanted, and presented it on his web site as an example of how complicated MS dialog boxes are compared to Mac dialog boxes for the same thing, which he led people to believe was copying a single file to a folder where there was a file with the same name.It seems to me that you are jumping to conclusions by assuming that I can't prove what I am talking about.

Venture · Dec 27, 1999

"I read the ORIGINAL PCmag test and it initially had quite a bit to say about the graphics acceleration being switched off and why this was justified: because that was the default state of the mac... numerous people, myself included posted in that this was odd, of all the new macs I've ever used, I've never had to "switch on" the graphics, and assuming that PCmag unluckily got hold of an iMac where the graphics were somehow disabled, it still seemed a tad unfair to at least not investigate to see whether something was amiss, and just assume that the average user would never switch the graphics back on! as for how the graphics were disabled, I'm afraid I can't remember exactly how they explained this, and I can't check because PCmag altered the article after a couple of days to remove all mention of the status of the macs video acceleration (and of course now the iMacs poor showing now seemed even worse). Alls I can think of is that the ATI drivers were disabled in the extensions manager. I was hoping someone who actually was there would remember the article changing and back me up: don't worry, I won't ask you to take my word for it.PCmag did a rematch, this time with iMac graphics enabled... which is pretty much an admission that they weren't the first time around..." _______________________________ http://www.zdnet.com/products/stories/reviews/0,4161,2144923,00.html "Name: Larry ValiskaMost people seem to be missing the fact that the graphics accelerator card that comes installed in the iMac was disabled for the test. You tested PCs with graphics accelerator cards working! Try enabling the iMac card and run the test fairly.PCM: In fact, Larry, the iMac's graphics acceleration was enabled.

Venture · Dec 27, 1999

Why the iMac's graphics acceleration wasn't enabled, why PC Mag didn't turn it off, and why it can't be turned on or off:"TITLE iMac: Graphics Acceleration Limited By VRAM Configuration Article I

30693 Created: 8/11/98 Modified: 8/15/98-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TOPIC I purchased some games that can use the iMac's hardware graphics acceleration, but they behave as if 3D acceleration is not available. Can you explain?-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSSION The iMac ships with 2 megabytes of VRAM, a configuration that allows 3D acceleration only at the lowest resolution, 640 x 480. Either reduce the resolution or install more VRAM (SGRAM).To determine whether the iMac has more than 2 MB of VRAM installed, open the Monitors & Sound control panel and select the 1024 x 768 resolution shown. If "Millions" is an option provided in the "Color Depth" section of the control panel, the VRAM has been upgraded."There - Apple said it, not me. It wasn't PC Magazine that "turned off" video acceleration on the original iMacs, it was Apple that didn't include it in the first place. http://til.info.apple.com/techinfo.nsf/artnum/n30693

resteves · Dec 27, 1999

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Well that sure is an advantage. If you get the same dialog box, maybe Mr. Every should have pointed that out. What will be the next Mac "advantage"? One error message for myriads of errors, rather than Windows pointing out the error and giving you a clue where to fix things? Is lack of information somehow a virtue? Are Mac users really that dumb that they can't take too much info about their problems? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, Every *did* point that out in the follow-up piece. And I see you have managed to dodge the fact that you did indeed jump to a conclusion and *assumed* that he used only a file on the Mac. Which one is better was not the point brought up, the fact that he was lying was the point, and in actuality, all we know is that *you* were making assumptions. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> No, it was not a question of Every thinking that the Mac way was better. It was Every pointing out that IN THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES the Windows dialog box was more complex. That isn't opinion, that is an outright lie. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And once again, you have *no* evidence that it wasn't the same circumstance. you are *assuming* that he used a file on the mac and multiple folders on the PC. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Now as Mr. Every ran away when someone pointed out what he was up to (in other words, he didn't leave the original and explain where he went wrong) you'll have to take this on trust. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Huh?? what are you talking about? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> . In that case, the dialog box names the file, the date, and the size. That's *really* confusing, especially if you have a file that's the most recent and you want to overwrite the original. If you had a Mac, you'd have check this in the folder window; Windows tells you when you copy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, the mac DOES tell you if the target has a newer or older one. Did you actually read the article? Okay, as far as the rest of your response: I tried what you were talking about, and it did not work at all like you said. Now, I currently only have acces to a 'recent' copy of Win95 (I bought it in 1998) so it may have changed, I will try and use a Win98 box later. When overwriting a folder, I got the *same* dialog box regardless of whether there were muliple folders inside, or just mulitple files. Not only that, but with only multiple files, the "yes" and "yes to all" did the exact same thing. It would make sense that if I do not click "yes to all" that it would ask me about the other files, but it didn't. The buttons worked as expected when using mulitple folders, but only as far as the folders go, it still never asked about the files themselves. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> So the "All" in Yes to All is all folders. It can't be all files, because that is covered by the simple Yes or No buttons. Windows is smart enough not to include a Yes to All button where it isn't needed; it only shows this where the same dialog box will appear again. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As I said, it does not work that way in '95. It may have changed... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Therefore, there were multiple folders in Every's example. The folder icon in Windows is very clear. It can't be confused with a file. David Every didn't confuse folders with files. He copied over a bunch of folders, got the dialog box he wanted, and presented it on his web site as an example of how complicated MS dialog boxes are compared to Mac dialog boxes for the same thing, which he led people to believe was copying a single file to a folder where there was a file with the same name. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Now you are imagining things, or you just never read his article. The dialog clearly states that he is copying a folder, and his following text clearly states that he is *not* talking about a single file. Again, this is an *assumption* that YOU have made. He was very clearly talking about copying folders with multiple files. He even states that the Win method is more powerful and gives more options, he just thinks that it is a poorer way of doing it. Again, you can disagree with his opinions, but instead you fabricate situations based on multiple assumptions.Even if it were multiple folders in Win, you are making an assumption that it is not multiple folders on the Mac. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> It seems to me that you are jumping to conclusions by assuming that I can't prove what I am talking about. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No, I never assumed you could not prove it, I just asked how, because I could not see it. Your telling me the difference between dialog boxes makes sense, and I assume it does work that way in the new versions.You have valid arguments for which is better, but the problem comes up when you start assuming Every's errors.

PinheadX · Dec 27, 1999

ok... read this. please. then maybe we can close this stupid thread. http://www.macopinion.com/fi.cgi?url=/editorials/oct98/981001.html

Mac = F$&K!!

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