James Webb Telescope

Frennzy

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So still way too hot. I wonder if it won't really cool off until they unfold the mirror.

Curious as to your question: The sunshield (well, 6 layers of it) are what will drastically drop them temp. Unfolding the mirror seems to not really be a part of that equation. (Unless you're talking about the active cryo-cooling for the instrumentation)
 

dio82

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How cold does it have to get
NASA":17nmkk48 said:
The sunshield will allow the telescope to cool down to a temperature below 50 Kelvin (-370°F, or -223°C) by passively radiating its heat into space. The near-infrared instruments (NIRCam, NIRSpec, FGS/NIRISS) will work at about 39 K (-389°F, -234°C) through a passive cooling system. The mid-infrared instrument (MIRI) will work at a temperature of 7 K (-447°F, -266°C), using a helium refrigerator, or cryocooler system.

The cryo cooler is absolutely mindbogglingly crazy. Cooling through standing pressure waves :eek: :eng101:

https://youtu.be/aICaAEXDJQQ
 

Shavano

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So still way too hot. I wonder if it won't really cool off until they unfold the mirror.

Curious as to your question: The sunshield (well, 6 layers of it) are what will drastically drop them temp. Unfolding the mirror seems to not really be a part of that equation. (Unless you're talking about the active cryo-cooling for the instrumentation)

It's not getting cooler, counter to my intuition. Yesterday it was -153C at the instruments and now it's at -145C.
 
I think you're misinterpreting what that potential is that you showed. It's not a real potential. It comes from transforming the problem into a rotating coordinate system and it is velocity dependent. The spacecraft is not in danger of falling down the hill to infinity if it goes outside the L2 point.
I know that, I was mostly trying to express the directionality. In my head the frame of reference is the Earth-Sun axis. Perhaps I should refer to the directions as nadir and zenith. Haven't looked into it but my inclination is to think a fall to zenith from L2 would end up in a heliocentric orbit with approximately 1 year period, and a fall to nadir would do the same, subject to possible encounters with Earth or the Moon. I am guessing the fall to nadir would be quite sensitive to the precise starting conditions and could hit Earth, the Moon, or be ejected from the Earth-Moon system into a heliocentric orbit. Any of the above heliocentric orbits would likely be pretty close to Earth's orbit around the sun, hence have the possibility of future encounters.

JWST has a stationkeeping problem with several constraints:

-It, apparently, cannot thrust or cannot thrust very much in the nadir direction.
-While not tending to fall to infinity, an object at L2 is, as far as I can tell, stable in the directions normal to the Earth-Sun axis, and unstable along the Earth-Sun axis.
-Stationkeeping propellant is limited so the most efficient stationkeeping position compatible with other constraints must be used.

This to me suggests JWST must remain slightly to nadir of L2, even though this is a less efficient use of stationkeeping propellant. It would then maintain its position with delta-v to zenith, which it can do, rather than delta-v to nadir, which it cannot do (since nadir is always aligned to the Earth-Sun axis and JWST cannot expose its instruments to direct sunlight.

The tradeoff I describe is that the closer they get to L2 the more efficient stationkeeping will be, so there are competing requirements: efficient use of propellant, and not overshooting L2 to zenith.

I believe there's also an elliptical orbit about L2 on a plane normal to the Earth-Sun axis, though there's no problem using thrusters in that direction so that's less of an issue. And, with my understanding of the gravitational potentials at work, the spacecraft would tend to move back towards L2 rather than away in that plane.

I guess the first thing to state is that anything in equilibrium at L2 is in a heliocentric orbit and it would stay in a heliocentric orbit for any reasonably small perturbation from equilibrium because it is constrained by the initial orbital parameters around the sun. Depending on the perturbation the non-linear consequences is that it would start to drift to make it either lead or lag the earth's orbit.

In an earlier post you said this:

Apparently JWST can't thrust in the sunward direction. The launch therefore intentionally supplied somewhat less than the necessary impulse, and each of the several trajectory adjustments will also have to fall short. That might be another reason it can't position itself precisely at L2, it has to always remain on the sunward side of L2 and use gravitational adjustments.
Here's a page about the JWST orbit
and maintaining it on the Space Telescope Science Institute website
. It has diagrams of the JWST orbit showing projections in the different planes of a coordinate system rotating with the earth and the L2 point. The orbit clearly goes out past L2. I couldn't find any details in the twitter link you posted but I think what you read might have been talking about the injection point into the orbit around L2 needing to be inside L2 and not that the orbit itself has to stay inside the L2 point.
 

Happysin

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So still way too hot. I wonder if it won't really cool off until they unfold the mirror.

Curious as to your question: The sunshield (well, 6 layers of it) are what will drastically drop them temp. Unfolding the mirror seems to not really be a part of that equation. (Unless you're talking about the active cryo-cooling for the instrumentation)

It's not getting cooler, counter to my intuition. Yesterday it was -153C at the instruments and now it's at -145C.

I wouldn't expect it to start properly cooling until the shield is fully deployed and operating, which it isn't yet.
 
on the site: https://webb.nasa.gov/content/webbLaunc ... its=metric
does anybody know how they measure cruising speed. Will it be at zero when it's at L2?
The earth moves around the sun at ~30 km/s so the only way that the current cruising speed of ~0.78 km/s makes sense is if it is the rotating frame of the earth and L2. In that frame an object sitting at L2 would have a cruising speed of 0 km/s. The final orbit around L2 will take 6 months to complete and the orbital speed in the rotating frame will be ~1 km/s according to the Space Telescope Science Institute website.
 

Shavano

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on the site: https://webb.nasa.gov/content/webbLaunc ... its=metric
does anybody know how they measure cruising speed. Will it be at zero when it's at L2?
The earth moves around the sun at ~30 km/s so the only way that the current cruising speed of ~0.78 km/s makes sense is if it is the rotating frame of the earth and L2. In that frame an object sitting at L2 would have a cruising speed of 0 km/s. The final orbit around L2 will take 6 months to complete and the orbital speed in the rotating frame will be ~1 km/s according to the Space Telescope Science Institute website.

It appears this is right. From the popup:
"Webb's speed is at its peak while connected to the push of the launch vehicle. Its speed begins to slow rapidly after separation as it coasts up hill climbing the gravity ridge from Earth to its orbit around L2. Note on the timeline that Webb reaches the altitude of the moon in ~2.5 days (which is ~25% of its trip in terms of distance but only ~8% in time). See the sections below on Distance to L2 and Arrival at L2 for more information on the distance travelled to L2."
 

Shavano

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I wouldn't expect it to start properly cooling
Exactly. Once the shields are extended and tensioned, and the aft radiator deployed, it will begin to slowly radiate away the heat of the mass of itself.

OK, now I see. I though the earlier phase of sunshield deployment meant something more than it does. They just retracted the covers on them and tomorrow or so they'll extend and separate them. Then we should see the cold side stuff really start to cool down.
 

Skoop

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Don't forget that the spacecraft itself is still warm relative to its operating temp. It's been kept in clean rooms at room temperature ever since it came out of the vacuum freeze chamber some time ago when the mirror motors were tested, and then under air con after it was encapsulated. It has a mass of about 6500Kg; that's a lot that has to equilibrate with space at its final location. It will still be cooling when it arrives.
 

Petruchio

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I wouldn't expect it to start properly cooling
Exactly. Once the shields are extended and tensioned, and the aft radiator deployed, it will begin to slowly radiate away the heat of the mass of itself.

OK, now I see. I though the earlier phase of sunshield deployment meant something more than it does. They just retracted the covers on them and tomorrow or so they'll extend and separate them. Then we should see the cold side stuff really start to cool down.

Yeah, the deployment of the sunshield fabric itself really starts today, with the two booms being extended and then the layers being tensioned over the next couple of days.

After that's complete I'd assume we'll start seeing slow cooling and then even more after the radiator is deployed (next step after the sunshield is the secondary mirror deployment, then the radiator after that).
 
It has all been very counter-intuitive to me because every step toward deployment they make, the cold side seems to have gotten warmer. -157, then -153, then -147, now -144. Was that early cold temperature just due to liquid nitrogen or something that has now mostly evaporated?
Maybe it started getting hotter because it can see more of the sun as it gets farther away from earth.
 

dio82

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I wouldn't expect it to start properly cooling
Exactly. Once the shields are extended and tensioned, and the aft radiator deployed, it will begin to slowly radiate away the heat of the mass of itself.

OK, now I see. I though the earlier phase of sunshield deployment meant something more than it does. They just retracted the covers on them and tomorrow or so they'll extend and separate them. Then we should see the cold side stuff really start to cool down.

Yeah, the deployment of the sunshield fabric itself really starts today, with the two booms being extended and then the layers being tensioned over the next couple of days.

After that's complete I'd assume we'll start seeing slow cooling and then even more after the radiator is deployed (next step after the sunshield is the secondary mirror deployment, then the radiator after that).

Actually, the radiator is only for the instrument cooler. Most of the telescope will be cooled by blackbody radiation against black empty space.
 

Yagisama

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I read that the team is resting in preparation of tensioning. Any word on when that's planned?


Webb Sunshield Tensioning To Begin Sunday Jan 2


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Taking advantage of its flexible commissioning schedule, the Webb team has decided to focus today on optimizing Webb’s power systems while learning more about how the observatory behaves in space. As a result, the Webb mission operations team has moved the beginning of sunshield tensioning activities to no earlier than tomorrow, Monday, Jan. 3. This will ensure Webb is in prime condition to begin the next major deployment step in its unfolding process.

Eve4zKrl.png
 

diabol1k

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Yagisama

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I read that the team is resting in preparation of tensioning. Any word on when that's planned?


Webb Sunshield Tensioning To Begin Sunday Jan 2


s36hCONl.png



Taking advantage of its flexible commissioning schedule, the Webb team has decided to focus today on optimizing Webb’s power systems while learning more about how the observatory behaves in space. As a result, the Webb mission operations team has moved the beginning of sunshield tensioning activities to no earlier than tomorrow, Monday, Jan. 3. This will ensure Webb is in prime condition to begin the next major deployment step in its unfolding process.

Eve4zKrl.png


The team has now begun tensioning the second layer.

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