Cities Skylines: II

MTSkibum

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At least it's the second big-header of the announcement and comes after months of "modding is coming!" being pretty much the only news about updates for the game. As for the question of "what are your plans for fixing your damn game?" we get a sentence fragment, "there will also be a substantial amount of Performance updates and General Fixes & Improvements". Sigh. I understand that modding is huge to the community so maybe that's why it's basically exclusively the thing they've talked about since they stopped patching the game, but I really hope they aren't counting on modders to fix their remaining bugs for them. It's been a rough three months for maintaining enthusiasm about C:S2.

I have been into city simulation games since black and white sim city on an 8088. I am willing to give them a year to get it good just as long as they fix everything.

I haven't bought the game yet and I am not deterred by the poor reviews. Just as long as it is fixed eventually then I will purchase the game and probably 3-4 DLC's.
 
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Scifigod

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Delor

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Rough. I guess between Beach Properties being panned* and them then having to push back the major DLC even further they felt like they needed to throw the community some sort of bone. Hope things turn around eventually.

*Rightly so, IMHO. I didn't bother to complain here because I don't think there's much point in flogging a dead horse, but that was very little content, I thought it was mostly unattractive and not very well beached themed, and- speaking of dead horses to flog- there's not even beaches in the game to have beachfront property for! C:S2 has a lot of dodgy art assets and I think low density housing in particular is something they've struggled with. Many of them look weird, and almost all of them fail to evoke a sense of place. If I set the region to "North America" on Beachfront Properties I really ought to be either seeing Northeast coast shacks/boardwalk type, those flat-roofed and often tiled adobe-looking west coast houses or... whatever the hell Florida has going on. At best what the C:S2 beachfront pack gives me is a vague west-cost vibe from maybe a third of the structures. Obviously, other people have issues with the paid DLC thing while the game is still busted too, although that's not my axe to grind and I understand wanting to have something to give to the Ultimate Edition buyers.
 
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hambone

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A bit of a long read but the tl;Dr; is that the beach properties expansion is being refunded to people and converted to a free expansion. Timelines are slipping (again) on the ports expansion. Focusing (again) on fixing the base game over adding more paid content. Console release maybe (but not likely) in October.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...from-the-team-behind-cities-skylines.1665858/

What a total fuster cluck CO has become.

I feel if they were absolutely compelled to release in October (by finances, publisher contracts, whatever) they should have done it as an Early Access. Being honest about the game being early, rough, and incomplete would have let people know what they were getting, and probably abated a lot of the disdain and disappointment for everyone. Not to mention the terrible attempts at PR disaster management that followed.

Feeling bad for the staff at this point who are getting dragged through development hell due to what reads like a major failure of management.

I should add that Paradox looks really bad in all this too. Not to mention the string of complete duds that are more half assed than usual. VIc3, CS2, Star Trek Infinite, Millennia... yeesh.
 
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Delor

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Yeah. That's a great idea.

I wasn't entirely surprised by the state of the launch. They did a good job of hiding it with things like restricting the influencers to the early stages of the game, but I'd picked up on the performance issues from what wasn't being shown, plus some of that was exposed right before launch. There also were hints that it was unfinished in the tone of some of the final hour influencer takes. Further dampening my expectations, while I'd hoped that being Colossal Order instead of one of the more in-house Paradox teams would protect us, "incredibly broken" is pretty much every Paradox launch, not just the recent duds. It's just that most of their games are these huge, complex, ambitious strategy games and masochistic strategy gamers like me can still bask in the scope of what they do and enjoy it and ignore the fact that the wheels fall off after your first one or two dozen hours of play. Some eventually get better, many don't, but even a bad Paradox game is probably getting at least 40 hours of play out of me. Cities: Skylines is a different kind of beast than something like CK, EU, HoI, etc, though, and with a different community built around it.

Still, it was worse than I expected. What has especially surprised and disappointed me is how incredibly slow and stumbling their progress in patching it has been, and the way the flow of fixes shut off for the holidays- so shortly after a massively broken launch!- and remains basically stopped almost half a year later. How far all of the planned additions are getting pushed back is surprising, too. Their communication also isn't hot, and I'm getting really sick of the "the community is sooooooooo toxic" whines from developers who release broken games- I think I've seen four in the past twelve months. Yes, the community is toxic and it sucks, but you're always going to find that for anything big on the internet. As they say, don't read the comments. The reason the community toxicity in your case so prevalent and highly visible, OTOH, was directly caused by your decision to rush out broken crap to meet financial objectives. Less finger wagging for something you're also partially responsible for, more patches, please.

In the rear view mirror, the big PR they pushed before launch feels super dishonest. Calling it early access would have been a way better way to spin it, manage community expectations, and be more honest about the state of the thing they're releasing.
 
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hambone

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The funny thing about CO not launching SC2 as "early access" is that the approach has a knack for turning shit into a money printing machine. Early access sells not a product but a vision, and the early adopters become not hostile but evangelical about how great the game will eventually be, such that even micro-steps forward are cheered and big steps backward are rationalized away. Case in point: "Star Citizen." Turned a $2M kickster in 2012 into $676M by 2024. It's a reality distortion machine, but at least they're honest about it, and the people who buy in seem to enjoy being in the club. So be it.

CO really blew this launch, and despite the Ars interview last December and CO's claim to being "insanely candid", we really never learned why they blew it. They must have been weeks away from running out of money and too proud to say it. Or Paradox was gonna invoke monetary penalty clauses or something. I can't imagine CO were otherwise so blind as to the consequences of their choices.

Anyway, here's to December 2024 when the game might finally be good.

and I'm getting really sick of the "the community is sooooooooo toxic" whines from developers who release broken games

Speaking of reality distortion fields... I totally see this too.

I recently offered a suggestion in a Discord chat with a Puzzmo developer who took a totally rational question (re: obvious holes in their scoring system) straight to DEFCON 1.

Their response was designed to shut down the convo and minimize the speaker. Their position amounted to "if you take exception to our paper-thin excuse about our product it's because you are being toxic." A form of response which is, ironically, self-serving and pretty toxic? It's ridiculous.
 
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hambone

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I will give this another 6 months.

If I had to bet on it I'd say you'll likely be waiting longer.

The "deputy CEO" of Paradox has been tralking to PC Gamer and is still just making all kinds of defensive noises about the totally botched launch of CS2 while offering no indication meaningful improvements are on the way.

Actually it's worse than that.

He also tries to deflect the publishers responsibility for the premature launch by claiming "It was not the publisher saying to the devs, 'We don't care, kick it out the door.' We were very in agreement that it was time to release it."

Sure, "we didn't pressure them" we just took an honest look at a totally broken game and "agreed" it was good to go. Like how fucking stupid do you think we are?

THEN he tries to reframe the debate over at least making it an early access launch as a question of protecting the dev team. In fact early access protects a dev team because it manages consumer expectations -- something Paradox / CO were instead massively inflating in the months leading up to a launch so bad it has basically destroyed the credibility of an entire franchise.

And if all that isn't sad enough, this guy lays the blame for spectacularly bad software performance on gamers with "certain combinations of high level hardware also didn't work." Meanwhile, and to this day, CS2 runs like ass to the extent that it's hard to build roads.

These guys just keep digging the hole deeper and are pushing revisionist history instead of owning what happened. This is a public company. It is not a good sign. They sound a lot like Ubisoft over the last decade, who are now circling the drain.

Paradox has a recent multi-year track record of really spectacular failures on full-priced games -- Vic3, CS2, and Millennia were just bad, and Star Trek Infinite was a bait and switch sold for 3 months then abandoned without refends.

Hearing the "deputy CEO" talk like this about a marque franchise like CS only further undermines any confidence I have in management who are well on their way to ruining multiple franchises. The likelihood I invest in one of their games in the future is absolute zero.
 
It is honestly wild that they don't have asset creation tools out there, that is what fed CS1 from the start while they got their DLC train up and running. The new French/Paris assets look nice enough. I don't think they've delivered anything included in the Deluxe/Ultimate to those folks, we will see if they hit the Q4 '24 and Q2 '25 milestones there.

Sort of hard to justify jumping back in when the progress seems so slow. This doesn't seem like a NMS, relaunch situation.

EA/Maxis could do the funniest thing and release a proper SimCity to reclaim the throne.
 

MTSkibum

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THEN he tries to reframe the debate over at least making it an early access launch as a question of protecting the dev team. In fact early access protects a dev team because it manages consumer expectations -- something Paradox / CO were instead massively inflating in the months leading up to a launch so bad it has basically destroyed the credibility of an entire franchise.

I remember reading the weekly developer articles. Those were really indepth about how awesome the game was going to be. I was psyched back then about playing a new city simulator.

They were pumping up skylines 2 as the best city simulator ever, not something that was an early access type game.
 

hambone

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They were pumping up skylines 2 as the best city simulator ever, not something that was an early access type game.

Indeed, that's my point. Management hyped the game up so much and in ways that was totally out of whack with the state of the product. Why? Because a September / October full release would trigger all those pre-orders and fulfill management's visions of big fat Christmas bonuses.

If they had been honest, they would have tapped the brakes back in May or June, before they really turned on the hype cycle, and said "OK, this project needs to start generating cash flow, but it's rough, so lets release as early access with mod tools."

It's more or less how CS1 released, and the community embraced that approach. There were 1000s of mods within the first month. What followed was 8 years of printing DLC dollar bills.

This time around Paradox decided to cast Reality Distortion Fied by using marketing to sell us a polished turd. It didn't work, and that's on them. I don't blame devs for doing something ambitious and hard, but I do blame management for bullshitting the public.
 

Scifigod

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It has been a year now, what is the current state of it?
I haven't played it since the decorations patch from back in September. There's another patch since then that's supposed to fix homelessness and tourism. Also the content packs are supposed to dropping soon (via mods I guess???).

Performance wise it's actually playable now, my system would crash out trying to render shadows during the day->night transitions even with everything cranked to min.
I still ran into a bunch of weird traffic related stuff, for example 90% of outside traffic takes the very first available off ramp then goes through the center of town even though the highway has off ramps on both ends.
Disasters are still a joke, had a tornado run through the heart of the city and before it moved on to destroy the next building the one behind it was already rebuilt, on slow speed.
Taxes felt like they were in a better place with no weird +2billion -> -2billion swings anymore. Still feels a bit too easy mode.

I can't say I'd recommend it yet at full price but I've gotten my enjoyment out of it.
 
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Delor

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Just popping in to note that they've dropped in the sixth free region pack, and it's really nice to have all of these additional art assets. They're better than that deservedly-panned beachfront property DLC, and they're free! Also, the intersection lane assigner mod is amazing. The modern architecture DLC was also a pretty nice paid expansion pack.

The game is still undeniably jank and while they're sort of made the economy matter for the first couple of hours you'll still hit effectively-infinite-money fairly early on. Still, I think we're basically at a place where the game works as a chill diorama builder with a traffic subgame.
 

Ladnil

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Chill builder with a traffic subgame basically describes what I liked about CS1. Might have to give CS2 another chance at some point if it's achieved that level of polish finally. I kinda liked the lane planning and rerouting to get things flowing in CS1. CS2 for the hours I did play it at launch saw very few traffic backups but a huge amount of cars despawning at intersections, so it felt like my management of the traffic didn't matter.