Australian politics - Perpetual Thread.

[rainynight65]

This is only tangentially political, but I'll post it anyway, because it makes my blood boil:

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...a-religious-sect-jason-brendan-stevens-ntwnfb

How does a group of 14 people watch a child die and do nothing? This is not even religion - this is just collective delusion of the worst order. I hope these people get every relevant book thrown at them and then some. There need to be some very clear signals that being 'religious' does not absolve you of basic human decency and responsibilities, it does not make you master over someone's life, especially not a child's life, and there need to be severe consequences for this kind of bullshit.

 

[SnoopCatt]

Ah yes, good ol' religious freedom - harming innocent people for millennia.

Simon Longstaff from the Ethics Centre wrote a very thoughtful essay few years back. I recall referring to it during the gay marriage debate. He called out this exact example of freedom in how to act, or not act, as a liberty which is correctly curtailed in secular liberal democracies.

https://ethics.org.au/religious-freedom-secular-law/

That so many religious people don't understand where their freedom of religion ends is one of the reasons I'm opposed to any and all religious political parties, and am deeply suspicious of overtly religious politicians. Yeah ScoMo, I'm looking at you.

 

[SpocksBeer]

It's good old group think. Special people, with a special understanding of the universe united in their collective superior knowledge of what it all means. Never ends well, in fact at least some of them are probably even more convinced of their beliefs in the wake of the death of this little girl, and subsequent judgement by the unworthy. It would follow the pattern observed in When Prophecy Fails

 

[rainynight65]

Just look at the trajectory of the father as it is described in the article. He used to not be a member of the sect and did not even believe in god, never mind their collective delusion. He kept providing medication for his daughter, against the will of the family. But eventually he felt isolated in his family, gave in to peer pressure and 'converted' to the sect's beliefs. He described the next four months as 'the happiest of his life'. Now it sounds like he's one of the most delusional of the lot.

 

[Gary Patterson]

Just look at the trajectory of the father as it is described in the article. He used to not be a member of the sect and did not even believe in god, never mind their collective delusion. He kept providing medication for his daughter, against the will of the family. But eventually he felt isolated in his family, gave in to peer pressure and 'converted' to the sect's beliefs. He described the next four months as 'the happiest of his life'. Now it sounds like he's one of the most delusional of the lot.

A born again Christian would bore the ears off the Pope about how great they think Jesus is. This isn't a great surprise to me, but the sect that allowed a child to die for want of easily available medication is objectively evil, and deserve to be prosecuted for murder, not manslaughter. They knew what would happen, and ensured it did.

 

[rainynight65]

New QLD government already breaking promises

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-01...going-off-the-tracks-jarrod-bleijie/104872432

But nobody is calling it a broken promise.

 

[wco81]

New QLD government already breaking promises

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-01...going-off-the-tracks-jarrod-bleijie/104872432

But nobody is calling it a broken promise.

Didn't realize QLD was getting the Olympic Games.

Buses instead of rail?

Growing population even without the Olympics in just 7 years?

 

[rainynight65]

Any QLD politician who proposes buses instead of rail has never, I repeat, never used a bus in Brisbane.

Brisbane buses are a fucking disaster, they are always late and heavily impeded by road traffic, which, this being Brisbane, is also chaotic on most days.

Plus, they're extremely unwelcoming to visitors. I hated using buses when I moved here twelve years ago, and that has never stopped.

 

[wco81]

Well the one time I visited, I considered taking the rail line from Brisbane to Gold Coast for a day trip.

But ended up deciding to stay a couple of nights in the GC so drove it instead.

But IIRC, there wasn't necessarily an easy way to get to all parts of the GC from Brisbane, via the main train station? Like you'd have to transfer to some other form of public transportation?

 

[rainynight65]

I've never taken the train to the Gold Coast. It's a pretty long trip, and yes, the train only services a few main stops. The rest is covered by the light rail and, I assume, buses.

 

[Entegy]

Oh oh! I frequently travelled between Gold Coast and Brisbane... 11 years ago. The train was just that, a train between cities. Most places I wanted to go within Brisbane that weren't within the CBD required a bus. I remember being fascinated by the bus-only roads in the CBD, but that quickly turned into buses going into gridlocked traffic. Gold Coast was all bus all the time after the train station.

When I was there, Gold Coast was building a light rail rapid transit network. But, it was being built by Bombardier. And as a Canadian... yikes. That company is NEVER EVER on time with their projects. Like, take typical Quebec construction corruption idiocy and multiply it by 5. Was that LRT ever finished?

 

[rainynight65]

When I was there, Gold Coast was building a light rail rapid transit network. But, it was being built by Bombardier. And as a Canadian... yikes. That company is NEVER EVER on time with their projects. Like, take typical Quebec construction corruption idiocy and multiply it by 5. Was that LRT ever finished?

I don't have particular issues with Bombardier, and as far as I am aware, they provided the rolling stock, not the infrastructure (I might be wrong). The Gold Coast light rail is operational and very popular, although a subsequent stage is still outstanding (and now under threat as per the link I posted above).

 

[Faceless Man]

Any QLD politician who proposes buses instead of rail has never, I repeat, never used a bus in Brisbane.

Brisbane buses are a fucking disaster, they are always late and heavily impeded by road traffic, which, this being Brisbane, is also chaotic on most days.

Plus, they're extremely unwelcoming to visitors. I hated using buses when I moved here twelve years ago, and that has never stopped.

But...but they built the busway. And they have their new Metro* coming out soon...

I much prefer trains in general to buses, but in Brisbane, yes they are significantly better. Still, wasn't too bad even to get into the city while the Redcliffe Line was shut down over Christmas.

* Not an actual Metro, just a new kind of bus that they painted to look like a tram. Oh, and the busways are bloody absurd, and don't really fix the problem with traffic since they only cover the innermost parts of the city.

 

[Entegy]

I don't have particular issues with Bombardier, and as far as I am aware, they provided the rolling stock, not the infrastructure (I might be wrong). The Gold Coast light rail is operational and very popular, although a subsequent stage is still outstanding (and now under threat as per the link I posted above).

Thanks for letting me know! I should have clicked the link first, but I decided to read ahead first, and saw something I could actually comment on.

Shame that politicians always shit on public transit. I also remember people claiming that TransLink was very expensive for families, and it was just cheaper to drive places.

 

[wco81]

I've never taken the train to the Gold Coast. It's a pretty long trip, and yes, the train only services a few main stops. The rest is covered by the light rail and, I assume, buses.

I guess that makes sense but I was trying to get to the area around Surfer's Paradise, which seemed pretty central. So I'd have to take the light rail to get there.

Is there a more central area of the GC?

If they did build more rail, seems like connecting the CBDs of Brisbane and GC directly would seem to make sense. They are the two largest cities in QLD or is there something greater in population than the GC? In any event, GC seems like it attracts a high volume of traffic.

 

[rainynight65]

If they did build more rail, seems like connecting the CBDs of Brisbane and GC directly would seem to make sense. They are the two largest cities in QLD or is there something greater in population than the GC? In any event, GC seems like it attracts a high volume of traffic.

The main population centres of the Gold Coast are Southport, Surfer's Paradise, and Broadbeach. They are so densely built up by now that you'd struggle to get anything but street-level light rail in there, at least to the places that would be worthwhile. And if you were to build high-set rail lines, the property owners would throw fit after fit over their property values. Not sure how much of a possibility a subway would be, considering how much basement-level parking there is in those areas.

It might make sense to extend the main rail line to the Gold Coast airport, but as far as I am aware, there are no plans to do so.

Shame that politicians always shit on public transit. I also remember people claiming that TransLink was very expensive for families, and it was just cheaper to drive places.

Translink was very expensive in general. As a European I am used to weekly and monthly (and even annual) passes for frequent/regular users of public transport, but no such thing exists here. You paid for every single trip, and it's distance-based. It used to be that after nine trips in a week, every subsequent trip was free, but that apparently got abused quite a bit (people taking short bus trips in one or two days to up their count and then travel free for the remainder of the week), so then it turned into a scenario where the first eight trips in a week were full price, everything after that was half price. There was also no upper cap on weekly spend, as is common in some other Australian cities.

Last year the Labor government introduced 50c fares - every trip now costs 50c regardless of distance. That has most certainly made a difference.

 

[wco81]

The main population centres of the Gold Coast are Southport, Surfer's Paradise, and Broadbeach. They are so densely built up by now that you'd struggle to get anything but street-level light rail in there, at least to the places that would be worthwhile. And if you were to build high-set rail lines, the property owners would throw fit after fit over their property values. Not sure how much of a possibility a subway would be, considering how much basement-level parking there is in those areas.

It might make sense to extend the main rail line to the Gold Coast airport, but as far as I am aware, there are no plans to do so.

Ah in that case, they probably have it right, light rail to connect those areas to the nearest station where they could put in the long distance rail line.

Melbourne seems to have it set up right with the trams covering the CBD and beyond and connecting with the longer-distance rail. But I haven't used it as much because I don't want to buy Myki cards, though supposedly they are going to let you use contactless cards and mobile payments, as Sydney has done.

Public transport infrastructure isn't bad in Australia but it appears that cars will always be preferred by many people there.

 

[Faceless Man]

Ah in that case, they probably have it right, light rail to connect those areas to the nearest station where they could put in the long distance rail line.

Melbourne seems to have it set up right with the trams covering the CBD and beyond and connecting with the longer-distance rail. But I haven't used it as much because I don't want to buy Myki cards, though supposedly they are going to let you use contactless cards and mobile payments, as Sydney has done.

Public transport infrastructure isn't bad in Australia but it appears that cars will always be preferred by many people there.

Screw 'em. They all got their property off the back of Russ Hinze, so who cares what it does to their property values.

Nah, public transport infrastructure is pretty bad. And, importantly, intercity rail is useless. We really need to build out regional rail networks, but no-one wants to spend the money. They talk about high speed rail on the East coast corridor, particularly Sydney-Melbourne, but they can't even upgrade the Sydney-Canberra rail to handle more than 80kph top speed.

 

[NavyGothic]

I think HSR in Australia is a dead end; we have the problem that air travel between the capital cities is high volume, fast and cheap. It just doesn't make much sense to catch a 14hr train for $70 from Sydney to Brisbane when I could catch a 90min flight for $100. Even if you magic wand the economics and somehow deliver HSR at 5hr for the same price, that's still a pretty hard sell.

Without the interstate traffic driving up demand, it's hard to justify big investments in regional rail networks where it would be useful (I bemoan the lack of a competitive airline market every time I go on holidays...).

The only way we make rail a competitive option is with a high carbon tax. Not saying that's necessarily a bad idea, but good luck passing that and not eating a -20% vote swing at the next election.

 

[rainynight65]

5 hours from Sydney to Brisbane might almost be a sweet spot. Considering the extra time required for flights on both ends, and considering that trains will terminate way closer to the respective CBDs than flights... I can see it. Myself, I would do that any day of the week, because I hate short-haul flights (my ears don't like the aggressive repressurization on descent, and most of the time I end up with ear issues. Long haul flights are more benign for me)

Problem is, they need to think proper high-speed rail, and not the 160km/h bullshit they've been flinging around. Proper HSR is north of 250km/h, as demonstrated at length in Europe and Japan. In Europe, suburban rail travels at up to 160km/h. That also means they can't service every stop they used to with the current trains, because then you completely lose the advantage of HSR. Looking at some proposals for HSR between Sydney and Newcastle, I am not fully convinced Australian politicians understand the concept.

Edit: also it wouldn't necessarily need a carbon tax. A ban of shorthaul flights on routes where viable train transport exists could be the ticket, as France has attempted (yes, I know that their attempt is not optimal, but that doesn't mean it's a totally invalid approach).

 

[wco81]

Yeah I was going to mention what they do in Europe, with the city center to city center trains.

But the other factor, which Americans also fail to appreciate, is that they have well over a century of rail culture. So despite a lot of LCCs, trains in Europe get plenty of passengers. People seem to appreciate the convenience of rail, even with the longer travel times.

Sydney to Brisbane seems easy, just direct line along the coast.

But how would Sydney to Melbourne work? Cut across inland to keep distance as short as possible? Versus 60-90 minute flights, I think train trips would have to be 4-5 hours max.

 

[rainynight65]

A rail connection between Sydney and Melbourne exists and is currently being serviced (travel time 11-12 hours). It would need to be overbuilt/upgraded to allow for high speed, but it's not like there's nothing there.

Same for Sydney - Brisbane. Currently the train services terminate at Casino and from there it's bus, I am not sure why because the standard gauge line extends all the way to Roma Street.

4-5 hours max travel time should be absolutely feasible on those routes, if someone were to tell the doubters to pull their heads in, and actually do it right (even if it takes a bit longer and costs a bit more).

 

[NavyGothic]

Edit: also it wouldn't necessarily need a carbon tax. A ban of shorthaul flights on routes where viable train transport exists could be the ticket, as France has attempted (yes, I know that their attempt is not optimal, but that doesn't mean it's a totally invalid approach).

I quite like that legislation in Europe, but in Australia the only way to put a meaningful dent in air traffic emissions is to ban flights between the capital cities. Capital -> capital routes are about 80% of flights, and I'm guessing significantly higher in passenger %.

So it's not like that would be any more politically palatable.

 

[NavyGothic]

Same for Sydney - Brisbane. Currently the train services terminate at Casino and from there it's bus, I am not sure why because the standard gauge line extends all the way to Roma Street.

It's because of the Cross River Rail and related upgrades to Brisbane/Roma St networks. No idea when the line is scheduled to be open again.

My dad actually does travel this every few months when he comes up to visit me (Sydney -> Bundaberg). As a pensioner he gets free rail travel, and he's quite happy to sleep on the train so that's a good use case!

 

[Entegy]

Translink was very expensive in general. As a European I am used to weekly and monthly (and even annual) passes for frequent/regular users of public transport, but no such thing exists here. You paid for every single trip, and it's distance-based. It used to be that after nine trips in a week, every subsequent trip was free, but that apparently got abused quite a bit (people taking short bus trips in one or two days to up their count and then travel free for the remainder of the week), so then it turned into a scenario where the first eight trips in a week were full price, everything after that was half price. There was also no upper cap on weekly spend, as is common in some other Australian cities.

Last year the Labor government introduced 50c fares - every trip now costs 50c regardless of distance. That has most certainly made a difference.

Oh yes, I remember this very well. I had a friend who did exactly what you said: She had no classes Monday, so she would take the bus down one stop and walk back home. She did it enough times on Monday that she had free transit to pretty much anywhere in SEQ for the rest of the week.

I actually liked the unified zone-based travel, as while expensive, it was better laid out/easier to navigate that my home system (Montreal, Canada) which at the time wish a mishmash over 200 fare types and something stupid like 15 different regional transit agencies.

 

[VirtualWolf]

Man, The Guardian aren't mincing words about the LNP in Queensland:

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...an-haunts-early-days-of-crisafulli-government

Crisafulli had promised to appoint himself as the tourism minister in the new government but did not. He promised to set key performance indicators for his ministers but the documents are vague with no measurable outcomes that might be used to hold them to account.

The premier’s personal promise – that crime victim numbers would decrease – is also off to a rocky start. A serious incident this month has already highlighted the government’s claim that “adult time” laws would deter children from committing serious offences may not be the panacea it had hoped for. Crisafulli says the laws will get even tougher.

And regional communities who voted for the LNP are already beginning to question why the punitive youth crime laws – which experts overwhelmingly warned would not prevent and decrease crime – have not, in fact, prevented or decreased crime.

 

[Faceless Man]

I'll be surprised if that translates to much in the Federal election. Queenslanders are great at voting against their own interests and/or better judgement.

 

[SnoopCatt]

At the bottom of that Guardian story:

“It is well documented that the brains of young people do not fully develop until they are well into their 20s,” said Nicholls, who voted in December, along with the rest of his party, to treat 10-year-olds who commit serious crimes like adults.

The LNP can't have it both ways. Either children are not fully capable to understanding the consequences of their actions, in which case it is unconscionable to sentence them as adults. Or they are capable, in which case it is cruel and abusive to deny them gender therapy.

The "tough on crime" dog-whistle is a favourite of conservative politicians everywhere, because it is so easy to point to a handful of violent or repeat offenders. I just wish there was a tried and tested way to debunk it.

 

[ScruffyNerf]

At the bottom of that Guardian story:

The LNP can't have it both ways. Either children are not fully capable to understanding the consequences of their actions, in which case it is unconscionable to sentence them as adults. Or they are capable, in which case it is cruel and abusive to deny them gender therapy.

The "tough on crime" dog-whistle is a favourite of conservative politicians everywhere, because it is so easy to point to a handful of violent or repeat offenders. I just wish there was a tried and tested way to debunk it.

Well, you could point to US conservatives who have demonstrably abandoned the 'tough on crime' aspect.

 

[rainynight65]

If these quoted 'regional communities' are already starting to question why crime rates haven't dropped yet, then 'dumb as rocks' doesn't even begin to cover how I feel about them and their voting choices. Like, it's been barely two months and they're wondering why crime rates haven't dropped yet? Seriously?

I had this discussion not too long ago, in a different forum, with someone purporting to be from one of those communities. When I said that youth crime is a complex problem that does not have simple solutions, the response was that they don't want to hear it's a complex problem, they want the Premier to act. My subsequent question as to what they thought the Premier could do on short notice that would make a noticeable and sustainable change, went unanswered.

Never freaking mind the fact that just introducing harsher punishments has never in the history of crime been an effective deterrent to crime - even if it was, it would take significantly longer than a few months to show an effect. Is absolutely nobody even trying to understand and apply basic concepts and contexts any more? Are we all just operating on wishful thinking?

Fuck.

 

[rainynight65]

The LNP can't have it both ways. Either children are not fully capable to understanding the consequences of their actions, in which case it is unconscionable to sentence them as adults. Or they are capable, in which case it is cruel and abusive to deny them gender therapy.

But that's precisely it. I think they are aware of the double standard, but don't care. It always translates into "We will not allow you to make adult decisions and enjoy adult privileges until you've reached an arbitrary age, but if you fuck up we will more than happily treat you like an adult even if you're much younger."

There is no logic to it.

 

[SnoopCatt]

I guess it's probably split between those who see the double standard but don't care (because ideology trumps everything), and those who genuinely aren't aware or didn't realise. Either way though, it does seem to indicate that people with critical thinking skills are thin on the ground on that end of the political spectrum.

 

[SnoopCatt]

Well, you could point to US conservatives who have demonstrably abandoned the 'tough on crime' aspect.

Well, they made an exception for one particular person...

 

[Faceless Man]

Well, they made an exception for one particular person...

It's a damn sight more than 1. There were 1500 odd people just recently who no longer have to live with the consequences of their actions.

 

[sixstringedthing]

What the hell is a Stoush?

A bit of a kerfuffle. A blue, a barney, a rumble, a set-to, a shitfight, a fucking corker of a hoo-haa.
We're an SB thread now, so we have to be somewhat coherent apparently, hope that helps.

The problem with the Australian political system (IMO) is that voting is compulsory (at least you have to turn up to get your name crossed off) and that media ownership is highly concentrated (News Ltd owns 70% +)therefore no matter how uninformed one is you still vote.

Would you rather have a system in which large numbers of highly uninformed people are legally required to cast a vote for who gets to run things (along with those who are actually informed), or a system in which the people who care enough to vote end up with a disproportionate level of respresentation/influence over the governance of everyone (including those who actually are well informed but were not able/could not be bothered to vote for whatever reason)?

If you don't make people do it, it a big chunk of them just won't, even if that refusal works against their best interests. We all prioritise the shit we have to do right now over anything else in our lives, that's just part of being a human in the modern world, and sometimes it's a really bad thing. Like when it comes time to decide who gets to rule over you.

I firmly believe that two crucial aspects of a functioning democracy (amongst several others) are compulsory voting, and a free and fair media. The USA has failed at both, and look where that's got them. We have pretty much lost the latter already in Australia as far as the vast majority of the population is concerned. If we lose the former it will be an instant win for billionaires everywhere. But a big part of the social contract that begins with "you are legally required to vote" is the state being required to make that participation as easily available to as many citizens as possible. We are falling down there, perhaps not as badly as other nations, but it definitely needs work.

 

[zenparadox]

New QLD government already breaking promises

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-01...going-off-the-tracks-jarrod-bleijie/104872432

But nobody is calling it a broken promise.

An LNP promise has not enough substance to break, since it was an illusion from the start.

 

[SnoopCatt]

In an apparently serious comment, Peter Dutton has this morning called Trump a "big thinker" who "brings gravitas to the situation".
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-02-06/federal-politics-live-blog-february-6/104902848

I can only surmise that he's thinking that by flattering Trump now, he'll be in Trump's good books if he does become PM after the next election. Perhaps someone needs to remind him that Trump has zero loyalty to anyone, and has demonstrated a complete willingness to turn on friends, allies, partners, and subordinates if the mood suits him.

 

[SnowGhost]

Dutton thinks he can be trump.au
But he's not Nazi enough.

 

[Faceless Man]

Dutton thinks he can be trump.au
But he's not Nazi enough.

You sure about that? He's a former Queensland cop.

Although, technically, he's spent much more time as a landlord and Member of Parliament than he ever did as a cop.

 

[rainynight65]

Dutton absolutely has a fascist streak, which shone through a bit in his early days as immigration minister under Abbott. He's just been going to great lengths to hide it in an effort to make his public image more palatable.