Abuse of power problem for Apple?

I’m full of shit? You are the one who came in here blowing a bunch of hot air about how Symbian was a closed platform, how they didn’t allow third party payment apps, and as you were consistently proven wrong over and over again, moved the goal posts ever further. You are a fucking idiot.

Why wasn't Nokia or Ericsson, when they dominated mobile phones, forced to open up Symbian or their mobile OSes at the time, to third parties. Pretty sure they also had a mobile payment system using SMS. Did they allow third parties access to it?
Is there anything there about installing alternate OSs? Nope. So shut the fuck up, and stop accusing others of lying.


You tried to pretend like Nokia phones had alternative OS options around 2005.

You can't back that up can you, liar?
No I did not, show me where.

I even said here they didn't exist:
Just because nobody developed an alternative OS for Symbian phones doesn’t mean Nokia didn’t allow it
And here:
Just like you could install an alternate phone [sic] on your Nokia at the height of their popularity. Just because nobody wanted to doesn’t mean that nobody could.

So back up your accusation that I'm a liar or apologize. Oh wait, you can't back up your bullshit. So I have nothing left to respond to your wild rantings, until you apologize for calling me a liar.
 

Megalodon

Ars Legatus Legionis
35,128
Subscriptor++
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/ ... th-council

The legislation appears to be going ahead. The legislation appears to be based on classifying companies as "gatekeepers", and any such companies are prohibited from exploiting their outsized influence. This likely prohibits Apple from banning other browser engines, other app stores, messaging interoperability, and so on. Fines of up to 20% of global turnover are possible (that would be ~$73 billion per year for Apple).

I've long maintained Apple was foolish to emphasize rent-seeking to the degree it does due to the risk of regulatory intervention. Seemed obvious to me that if this was enough of a sore point for long enough, especially with Apple's quite overt abuses of their position like using spammy notifications others are not permitted, other countries would simply force a resolution and there would be no guarantee the benefits of Apple's stewardship would be preserved in that scenario. It would be far better to relax the controls in a planned way to reduce the pressure for intervention while retaining more of the benefit to Apple and users. Seems like we're now poised to go to the other extreme. People will rail against the EU for this, but I don't think there's any market participant more to blame than Apple. This is very much a situation of Apple's own creation, and the onerous nature of the draft legislation reflects the extremity of Apple's market abuses.
 

wco81

Ars Legatus Legionis
30,486
It's a highly punitive proposal, 20% of worldwide revenues.

If Apple tells them to pound sand, what are they going to do about it?

They want to bar Apple from the EU? Fine, let's see how that goes over with their own citizens.

And you can bet retaliatory actions from the US.


Height of hypocrisy, like giant EU firms are pure, yet they pretend like making the iOS ecosystem more competitive is some urgent matter.

No they see the huge profits and they want some of that money or specifically, for a company like Spotify to be able to maximize their profits.

They're not labeling Spotify a "gate keeper" even though they have a lot of exclusive content and they obviously are the sole party deciding what's on their platform. What about the artists and podcast producers who get barred?

Their arguments are pure bull.


BTW the threshold for companies to be targeted by this DMA law is €75 billion market cap or "EU turnover" over €7.5 billion.

Spotify market cap is only $20 billion and their global revenues are in the $8 billion range, so the EU revenues may be under the €7.5 billion threshold.

How convenient!!!

Due to exchange rates and then the "EU turnover" phrase, Spotify doesn't meet either threshold.

But when it comes to fines, it would be 20% of global revenues.

Nice, shift the standards around lest an EU company gets caught in this attempt to cast a net for extortion.

Talk about abuse of power ...
 

wrylachlan

Ars Legatus Legionis
13,709
Subscriptor
Governments by and large are responsible for the well-being of their citizens. Even if you think the move is unfair globally, being unfair in the service of their own citizens is what governments are supposed to do. If they manage to extract 20% of global profit then good on them.

Obviously it won’t come to that as Apple isn’t dumb enough to even try to tell the EU to “pound sand”.
 

wco81

Ars Legatus Legionis
30,486
It's "worldwide turnover" so I think they're referring to revenues, not profits, which can be manipulated in the books.

I don't even know if EU revenues even constitute 20% of global revenues for any large multinational.

Well at least in the case of Apple, their biggest revenues by region are probably US/North America and China. Add in some other big markets like Japan and the UK and EU revenues may not constitute 20% because their market shares are low in those countries.


So they could exit the market but they are loath to do so.

There is already a remedy. EU consumers who want to side load or access alternative app stores can use Android and they do so in overwhelming numbers.

But Apple has the big cash pile.
 

Megalodon

Ars Legatus Legionis
35,128
Subscriptor++
I don't even know if EU revenues even constitute 20% of global revenues for any large multinational.
Seems like it's right around there AFAICT.

There is already a remedy. EU consumers who want to side load or access alternative app stores can use Android and they do so in overwhelming numbers.
Nope. Due to the costs and various sources of friction associated with switching, some manufactured very intentionally by Apple for that precise purpose (eg iMessage lock-in) this has been found to be insufficient to maintain a healthy market.

And in any case Android is only slightly better, with Google having recently instituted its own crackdown on payments etc. When the two main competitors are both bad actors, and together overwhelmingly dominate the market, that's a clear market failure. And if the market can't keep itself in a healthy state, that's a clear justification for regulatory intervention. If existing laws are insufficient, as is often the case in new markets, that's a good reason for new legislation.

But Apple has the big cash pile.
I think it's more the case that due to market failure neither competitor is prevented from extracting usurious rent that has no relationship to its underlying cost structure.
 

wco81

Ars Legatus Legionis
30,486
Why would they need to switch?

Most of the people who didn't like Apple's policies bought Android.

Most of the people who bought Apple did so despite their policies.


That's not a credible argument. Market remedy is there and people who want to side load can choose the right product.

Imposing a business model or policies on a company is heavy-handed, as well as a demand for 20%.


It would be interesting to see them try to pass a similar law in the US, impose a 20% global revenues fine for what, not being able to side load?

Lina Khan may support that but will anyone else?
 

Megalodon

Ars Legatus Legionis
35,128
Subscriptor++
Imposing a business model or policies on a company is heavy-handed, as well as a demand for 20%.
EU's demand for 20% is heavy-handed but Apple's demand for 30% isn't? Interesting.

It would be interesting to see them try to pass a similar law in the US, impose a 20% global revenues fine for what, not being able to side load?
Ah, well, in the US there's no question about the priorities here. There's practically no limit to rent seeking. Not being able to side load, hedge funds buying up essential medicines to jack up prices thousands of times, that's all fine from the perspective of the US. The disagreement here seems to be whether companies should be allowed to engineer market failures that they themselves benefit from. The EU seems to think that's not the best approach. Apple can make the same decision it gives to users/developers: meet the conditions of the marketplace where they wish to operate, or leave.
 

Megalodon

Ars Legatus Legionis
35,128
Subscriptor++
30% of a buck or two vs. 20% of hundreds of billions in revenues, most of which is not even earned in the EU. :rolleyes:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that purchases of a buck or two can actually add up to larger amounts when repeated over many transactions. My suspicion is that large numbers of small transactions might even contribute to Apple's overall revenue of hundreds of billions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: D Fluke

Megalodon

Ars Legatus Legionis
35,128
Subscriptor++
Commissions from App Store sales amount to 20% of Apple's global revenues?

Probably a couple of orders of magnitude difference.
Services is almost exactly 20%. I don't believe they provide a breakdown within "services" but services overall is 20.38%. That won't be exclusively app store commissions of course, but 3rd party estimates suggest a large majority is, and the other stuff there will largely be subject to its own antitrust concerns such as promoting Apple services over others by exploiting their position as gatekeeper.

Overall I think the level of the potential fine is commensurate with both the contribution of the EU to Apple's overall revenue and the contribution of Apple's misconduct to their overall revenue. Keep in mind of course that a) this is the fine for repeated violations, Apple will have to refuse to change course for a while before it escalates to that degree and b) the fine must exceed the upside to misconduct to serve as sufficient disincentive.

Your estimate of multiple orders of magnitude difference is clearly wildly wrong. Ballpark, the maximum fine is about 5x that of services revenue from the EU. I think that's probably close to the minimum for it to be sufficient inducement for Apple to change course once you factor in all the delaying tactics etc Apple is likely to use.
 
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220516IPR29641/digital-markets-act-ep-committee-endorses-agreement-with-council

The legislation appears to be going ahead. The legislation appears to be based on classifying companies as "gatekeepers", and any such companies are prohibited from exploiting their outsized influence. This likely prohibits Apple from banning other browser engines, other app stores, messaging interoperability, and so on. Fines of up to 20% of global turnover are possible (that would be ~$73 billion per year for Apple).

I've long maintained Apple was foolish to emphasize rent-seeking to the degree it does due to the risk of regulatory intervention. Seemed obvious to me that if this was enough of a sore point for long enough, especially with Apple's quite overt abuses of their position like using spammy notifications others are not permitted, other countries would simply force a resolution and there would be no guarantee the benefits of Apple's stewardship would be preserved in that scenario. It would be far better to relax the controls in a planned way to reduce the pressure for intervention while retaining more of the benefit to Apple and users. Seems like we're now poised to go to the other extreme. People will rail against the EU for this, but I don't think there's any market participant more to blame than Apple. This is very much a situation of Apple's own creation, and the onerous nature of the draft legislation reflects the extremity of Apple's market abuses.

It seems to me that a couple of things stick out about Apple on this...the blocking of other wallets and their access to the NFC chips, and iMessage. I imagine they can bypass other store issues since sideloading is allowed.
 

wco81

Ars Legatus Legionis
30,486
So...realistically...what changes would Apple actually have to make?

Allow other wallets and allow them access to NFC?
Open up iMessage?
Allow other stores (though, isn't that already allowed via side-loading)?

what else?


Doesn't matter.

Even if they do all those things, EU bureaucrats will come up with more because they will still be making too much money, while no EU company ever becomes big in this space.

They will look the other way on their own oil and industrial conglomerates though.
 
So...realistically...what changes would Apple actually have to make?

Allow other wallets and allow them access to NFC?
Open up iMessage?
Allow other stores (though, isn't that already allowed via side-loading)?

what else?


Doesn't matter.

Even if they do all those things, EU bureaucrats will come up with more because they will still be making too much money, while no EU company ever becomes big in this space.

They will look the other way on their own oil and industrial conglomerates though.

So the EU never regulates EU companies? or do EU companies just not do non-competitive things to begin with?
 

wco81

Ars Legatus Legionis
30,486
So...realistically...what changes would Apple actually have to make?

Allow other wallets and allow them access to NFC?
Open up iMessage?
Allow other stores (though, isn't that already allowed via side-loading)?

what else?


Doesn't matter.

Even if they do all those things, EU bureaucrats will come up with more because they will still be making too much money, while no EU company ever becomes big in this space.

They will look the other way on their own oil and industrial conglomerates though.

So the EU never regulates EU companies? or do EU companies just not do non-competitive things to begin with?


Yeah the EU companies aren't as profitable as US companies. But still billions in profits. But they're pure right?

Go ahead and find how much in fines the EU has imposed on their own companies. Nothing in the billions like Google has been assessed.

Or telling a company what kind of product configuration they can ship, such as no browser or Windows Media Player preinstalled.
 
So...realistically...what changes would Apple actually have to make?

Allow other wallets and allow them access to NFC?
Open up iMessage?
Allow other stores (though, isn't that already allowed via side-loading)?

what else?


Doesn't matter.

Even if they do all those things, EU bureaucrats will come up with more because they will still be making too much money, while no EU company ever becomes big in this space.

They will look the other way on their own oil and industrial conglomerates though.

So the EU never regulates EU companies? or do EU companies just not do non-competitive things to begin with?


Yeah the EU companies aren't as profitable as US companies. But still billions in profits. But they're pure right?

Go ahead and find how much in fines the EU has imposed on their own companies. Nothing in the billions like Google has been assessed.

Or telling a company what kind of product configuration they can ship, such as no browser or Windows Media Player preinstalled.

Which EU companies have been so egregious in their anti-competitive behavior?
 

wco81

Ars Legatus Legionis
30,486
So...realistically...what changes would Apple actually have to make?

Allow other wallets and allow them access to NFC?
Open up iMessage?
Allow other stores (though, isn't that already allowed via side-loading)?

what else?


Doesn't matter.

Even if they do all those things, EU bureaucrats will come up with more because they will still be making too much money, while no EU company ever becomes big in this space.

They will look the other way on their own oil and industrial conglomerates though.

So the EU never regulates EU companies? or do EU companies just not do non-competitive things to begin with?


Yeah the EU companies aren't as profitable as US companies. But still billions in profits. But they're pure right?

Go ahead and find how much in fines the EU has imposed on their own companies. Nothing in the billions like Google has been assessed.

Or telling a company what kind of product configuration they can ship, such as no browser or Windows Media Player preinstalled.

Which EU companies have been so egregious in their anti-competitive behavior?


First of all, I don't buy that Apple is doing anything egregious. They created their ecosystem and consumers can choose whether to buy their products and services, knowing their policies.

There's no groundswell of consumers demanding competing app stores or side loading. Nor people demanding that other parties get access to the NFC. Who wants that other than maybe some store chains? Nobody wants to open an app for different stores to make a contactless payment.

The ones who've complained are companies like Spotify.

But it's not consumers.

Any wildly successful company are going to have detractors. It's envy, seeing all those profits.

Why are they required to change their ecosystem? Why are bureaucrats getting into product design and configuration?

I don't think ANY private enterprise should be subject to such control. Next thing you know they're going to be setting prices too.

Apple created a successful business. That is despite having small market share in the EU, because most consumers go for lower prices and some also don't want the limitations that Apple imposes, like side loading. EU consumers have a choice.


But if you want to believe only Apple and other US companies are the ones using leverage to maximize profits, that's a pretty gullible POV.

EU not going after EU companies shows this is more politically motivated.
 

Megalodon

Ars Legatus Legionis
35,128
Subscriptor++
Yeah the EU companies aren't as profitable as US companies. But still billions in profits. But they're pure right?
You really seem committed to missing the point of these regulatory interventions. No one is claiming anyone else is "pure", only that a functioning market is necessary to keep the worst excesses from happening. The EU feels the market has failed in this case.

Any wildly successful company are going to have detractors. It's envy, seeing all those profits.
I was confused why you insist on framing it this way until I realized you don't actually have an argument, hence you have no choice but to frame this in terms of emotional retaliation rather than consumer welfare, because the instant you concede the framing of consumer welfare the entirety of your argument will be a lost cause.

No doubt some are envious of Apple's profits, but that is beside the point for the question of maintaining functional markets. Seems to me forcing Apple to open up payments is going to do far more to cut everyone's profits rather than reallocating Apple's profits to others. If the market is competitive nobody will be able to maintain a cut so wildly disproportionate to their underlying cost structure.

It's understandable that someone that supports Apple extracting usurious rent might be upset at that turn of events, but the key thing to keep in mind about that complaint is that it's irrelevant to the policy discussion and isn't a rebuttal to the case for regulatory intervention. There's only a case to be made against intervention if it actually harms the market it's meant to protect, and that's not a case you've bothered to make.
 

Megalodon

Ars Legatus Legionis
35,128
Subscriptor++
I don't think ANY private enterprise should be subject to such control. Next thing you know they're going to be setting prices too.
They could always use the US approach where it's entirely acceptable to kill people by having a hedge fund buy up something essential and overcharge for it. Personally I think the results from that approach speak for themselves and the libertarian crowd that supports the hands-off stance that you suggest have only themselves to blame for the mounting backlash.
 

wco81

Ars Legatus Legionis
30,486
You can't prove ANY consumer harm that people aren't allowed to have third party apps which use the NFC.

No consumers are demanding that, only potential competitors who want to offer such apps.

That's not a better consumer experience, to sort through different apps for different stores.


Consumers are addicted to phones, which has its own problems. But the current prices for devices and services aren't deterring massive adoption and use.


EU hasn't proven any consumer harm but they can write laws for whatever standard so that is why they did, because existing antitrust laws require showing consumer harm.

So the law is arbitrarily written only to target large US tech companies, because they set the bar too high for most EU tech companies.

Anybody who can't see this is a mercantilist move to weaken foreign companies, specifically US companies, for the benefit of EU companies are in denial. They tailored it so that it would only apply to US tech companies.

If an EU company worth only $70 billion in market cap decided to engage in anticompetitive and abusive practices, they can't be prosecuted under this law.

Funny how that works, isn't it?
 

Megalodon

Ars Legatus Legionis
35,128
Subscriptor++
Consumers are addicted to phones, which has its own problems. But the current prices for devices and services aren't deterring massive adoption and use.
You don't know that. The degree of gatekeeping currently in effect could easily be preventing new applications and we'd never know.

EU hasn't proven any consumer harm but they can write laws for whatever standard so that is why they did, because existing antitrust laws require showing consumer harm.
I believe the "consumer harm" standard as a legal threshold for regulatory intervention is primarily applicable in the US, where it is extremely narrowly construed. I would argue Apple's conduct actually does meet the "consumer harm" standard even for the US but that will take years to sort out. Apple's conduct also arguably runs afoul of existing EU laws, they most likely have decided they need more firepower in the form of thresholds that are being clearly violated and larger potential fines.

Anybody who can't see this is a mercantilist move to weaken foreign companies, specifically US companies, for the benefit of EU companies are in denial.
Counterpoint, the fact that it's easy to see a mercantilist motivation doesn't argue in the least against increased tech antitrust enforcement. The most you can hope to achieve with that argument is that they're doing the right thing for the wrong reason, to which the only rebuttal we need is "so what, it's still the right thing".

My position is that a step up in tech antitrust enforcement has been necessary for years globally, including in the US. If the mercantilist motivation provided the extra nudge for the EU to get serious before the US, that's actually fine. We might make similar observations about other recent regulatory interventions like China being the first to ground the 737 MAX. You can easily accuse China of having a mercantilist motivation contributing to that since Comac is developing a 737 competitor, and you'd probably be right, but the grounding was nevertheless the right thing to do. Similarly the EU may be a few steps closer to the threshold for action because of such motivations, but that doesn't argue in the least against their correctness. Rather there is a bias to inaction among regulators that means intervention is almost invariably too little too late, and even nakedly self-serving motivations still don't provide as much correction as is warranted.

If an EU company worth only $70 billion in market cap decided to engage in anticompetitive and abusive practices, they can't be prosecuted under this law.
Yet there's a substantial body of existing law that already covers the EU, and enforcement happens within the EU against EU-based companies, so it's not like this is purely used in an offensive capacity. It's done primarily to keep EU markets healthy. The fact a new law is being advanced seems to me like it has more to do with tech being ahead of regulators in a lot of ways more than anything else.
 

wco81

Ars Legatus Legionis
30,486
If there's consumer harm, then prove it, otherwise it's all BS.

In any event, they wrote this new law so they don't have to prove anything.

You have a thing about Apple so I hope when they chase other rich American companies, you have the same attitude.

And you won't cry if the US retaliates against EU firms too at some point, though they probably will never dominate in tech.
 
First of all, I don't buy that Apple is doing anything egregious. They created their ecosystem and consumers can choose whether to buy their products and services, knowing their policies.

There's no groundswell of consumers demanding competing app stores or side loading. Nor people demanding that other parties get access to the NFC. Who wants that other than maybe some store chains? Nobody wants to open an app for different stores to make a contactless payment.

The ones who've complained are companies like Spotify.

But it's not consumers.

Any wildly successful company are going to have detractors. It's envy, seeing all those profits.

Why are they required to change their ecosystem? Why are bureaucrats getting into product design and configuration?

I don't think ANY private enterprise should be subject to such control. Next thing you know they're going to be setting prices too.

Apple created a successful business. That is despite having small market share in the EU, because most consumers go for lower prices and some also don't want the limitations that Apple imposes, like side loading. EU consumers have a choice.


But if you want to believe only Apple and other US companies are the ones using leverage to maximize profits, that's a pretty gullible POV.

EU not going after EU companies shows this is more politically motivated.

That's an awefully long post to say that you can't think of any.

As for other wallets...I don't know...I bet Google would like to have Google Wallet/Google Pay on the iphone. Samsung.

I bet that someone would like to have their own app store on apple. Amazon maybe. They have the Amazon App store, which you can put on Android phones.

I think it is funny that you say it is a gullible POV and yet can't name any examples.
 
You can't prove ANY consumer harm that people aren't allowed to have third party apps which use the NFC.

No consumers are demanding that, only potential competitors who want to offer such apps.

That's not a better consumer experience, to sort through different apps for different stores.


Consumers are addicted to phones, which has its own problems. But the current prices for devices and services aren't deterring massive adoption and use.


EU hasn't proven any consumer harm but they can write laws for whatever standard so that is why they did, because existing antitrust laws require showing consumer harm.

So the law is arbitrarily written only to target large US tech companies, because they set the bar too high for most EU tech companies.

Anybody who can't see this is a mercantilist move to weaken foreign companies, specifically US companies, for the benefit of EU companies are in denial. They tailored it so that it would only apply to US tech companies.

If an EU company worth only $70 billion in market cap decided to engage in anticompetitive and abusive practices, they can't be prosecuted under this law.

Funny how that works, isn't it?

You really don't think there are any consumer who would use Google Wallet/Google Pay if it were available on iPhone? I'm not in the EU and I wish it were on there. We'd certainly use it on my wife's phone instead of Apple.
 
If there's consumer harm, then prove it, otherwise it's all BS.

In any event, they wrote this new law so they don't have to prove anything.

You have a thing about Apple so I hope when they chase other rich American companies, you have the same attitude.

And you won't cry if the US retaliates against EU firms too at some point, though they probably will never dominate in tech.

Yeah...and I hope you have the same attitude...though I somewhat doubt it will be the case.

And yeah...I have seen other US companies get dinged by EU..and I didn't rise up to defend the giant corporate company.

BTW...won't this same law apply to Google and others? Won't Google and samsung and others have to follow it? Oh...they already are?
 
  • Like
Reactions: D Fluke

lithven

Ars Tribunus Militum
2,041
If there's consumer harm, then prove it, otherwise it's all BS.
??? What does “consumer harm” have to do with anything? That’s not the regulatory standard in the EU.
It's a way to argue dishonestly. Shift the argument to an undefined or ill-defined term such as "consumer harm" and then say "prove it". Then if anyone tries to do so he can come back and say "that's not consumer harm". It would really work for anything.

For example:
"Ma Bell harmed consumers with high rates and other restrictive practices."
"They built the network and no one is forced to use a telephone, there is the telegraph still and people can still send letters through the postal service."

"Microsoft harmed people by abuse of their monopoly and forcing resellers to pay for Windows for every computer they sold."
"No consumer was forced to do that. That was only other companies, no consumer was directly impacted, and no company was forced to do that either since they could have bought retail or standard OEM licenses."
 
  • Like
Reactions: D Fluke

wco81

Ars Legatus Legionis
30,486
First of all, I don't buy that Apple is doing anything egregious. They created their ecosystem and consumers can choose whether to buy their products and services, knowing their policies.

There's no groundswell of consumers demanding competing app stores or side loading. Nor people demanding that other parties get access to the NFC. Who wants that other than maybe some store chains? Nobody wants to open an app for different stores to make a contactless payment.

The ones who've complained are companies like Spotify.

But it's not consumers.

Any wildly successful company are going to have detractors. It's envy, seeing all those profits.

Why are they required to change their ecosystem? Why are bureaucrats getting into product design and configuration?

I don't think ANY private enterprise should be subject to such control. Next thing you know they're going to be setting prices too.

Apple created a successful business. That is despite having small market share in the EU, because most consumers go for lower prices and some also don't want the limitations that Apple imposes, like side loading. EU consumers have a choice.


But if you want to believe only Apple and other US companies are the ones using leverage to maximize profits, that's a pretty gullible POV.

EU not going after EU companies shows this is more politically motivated.

That's an awefully long post to say that you can't think of any.

As for other wallets...I don't know...I bet Google would like to have Google Wallet/Google Pay on the iphone. Samsung.

I bet that someone would like to have their own app store on apple. Amazon maybe. They have the Amazon App store, which you can put on Android phones.

I think it is funny that you say it is a gullible POV and yet can't name any examples.

And why do those companies have a right to any of that?

It's one thing if Apple and any of those companies make a deal. But for the EU to force them to do it?
 

wco81

Ars Legatus Legionis
30,486
You can't prove ANY consumer harm that people aren't allowed to have third party apps which use the NFC.

No consumers are demanding that, only potential competitors who want to offer such apps.

That's not a better consumer experience, to sort through different apps for different stores.


Consumers are addicted to phones, which has its own problems. But the current prices for devices and services aren't deterring massive adoption and use.


EU hasn't proven any consumer harm but they can write laws for whatever standard so that is why they did, because existing antitrust laws require showing consumer harm.

So the law is arbitrarily written only to target large US tech companies, because they set the bar too high for most EU tech companies.

Anybody who can't see this is a mercantilist move to weaken foreign companies, specifically US companies, for the benefit of EU companies are in denial. They tailored it so that it would only apply to US tech companies.

If an EU company worth only $70 billion in market cap decided to engage in anticompetitive and abusive practices, they can't be prosecuted under this law.

Funny how that works, isn't it?

You really don't think there are any consumer who would use Google Wallet/Google Pay if it were available on iPhone? I'm not in the EU and I wish it were on there. We'd certainly use it on my wife's phone instead of Apple.


They can use Android, and most EU consumers opt for Android.

It's ridiculous, like Amazon demanding that their shows be allowed on Netflix.
 

wco81

Ars Legatus Legionis
30,486
If there's consumer harm, then prove it, otherwise it's all BS.
??? What does “consumer harm” have to do with anything? That’s not the regulatory standard in the EU.


Then what's the rationalization for this govt. intervention?

For whom are they intervening?


If they're claiming that there isn't enough competition in the iOS ecosystem, why is that a bad thing and for whom is it a bad thing?

If the EU's answer is that it's a bad thing for EU companies which want to use the NFC on iPhones, is that really a justifiable action, for govt. to try to choose winners and losers?

Why do they have some obligation to help company A by making company B allow company A on their platform or marketplace?

Does the EU tell shopping mall owners to let certain tenants be allowed in the mall, even if the owner doesn't want to?

Will the EU tell Spotify to allow certain podcasters, who didn't get offered deals by Spotify, to be put on Spotify?
 

wco81

Ars Legatus Legionis
30,486
If there's consumer harm, then prove it, otherwise it's all BS.
??? What does “consumer harm” have to do with anything? That’s not the regulatory standard in the EU.
It's a way to argue dishonestly. Shift the argument to an undefined or ill-defined term such as "consumer harm" and then say "prove it". Then if anyone tries to do so he can come back and say "that's not consumer harm". It would really work for anything.

For example:
"Ma Bell harmed consumers with high rates and other restrictive practices."
"They built the network and no one is forced to use a telephone, there is the telegraph still and people can still send letters through the postal service."

"Microsoft harmed people by abuse of their monopoly and forcing resellers to pay for Windows for every computer they sold."
"No consumer was forced to do that. That was only other companies, no consumer was directly impacted, and no company was forced to do that either since they could have bought retail or standard OEM licenses."


No if they want to hire economists to give expert testimony, come up with some study saying prices for these services or products would be lower if iOS was forced to let third-parties use the NFC or Apple was forced to allow side loading, at least show that.

It would probably be dubious but at least it would be something to debate.

But their reasoning is basically "because ... companies which are rich enough are "gatekeepers' so we can make them ..."
 

Megalodon

Ars Legatus Legionis
35,128
Subscriptor++
Then what's the rationalization for this govt. intervention?
What's the rationalization for govt intervention when you get arrested for driving drunk? Should they have to prove you hit someone?

As discussed, the US consumer welfare standard is so hard to meet that it's entirely possible to kill people and still not be able to prove it. Seems someone trying to defend that way of doing things to the hilt is simply not someone whose opinion needs to be taken seriously in a jurisdiction where hedge funds don't control the government.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/s ... dex_en.htm

From the EU's perspective, it's illegal to impose certain trading restrictions on your business partners, which Apple certainly does. Hence the "apps agreed to it" argument goes out the window, illegal contracts are not enforceable.

Why do they have some obligation to help company A by making company B allow company A on their platform or marketplace?
Because it benefits the market as a whole.