Jeep will launch four all-electric SUVs in the US by 2025

First up are the all-new Jeep Recon and the Jeep Wagoneer S.

Read the whole story

 

[MtnGoatJoe]

These will likely be out of my price range, but Jeep is the brand I strive for.

 

[ScifiGeek]

The reason we're seeing SUV EVs is not just because the US public prefers them - look at the relative sales numbers of the very similar Model 3 and Model Y - but also because a skateboard architecture works best with a tall vehicle.

The model 3 and other more sporty, low to the ground designs beg to differ.

Right, look at Model 3 sales vs Model Y sales. The Model 3 even has a price advantage. But it's outsold by the Y. Not by much, but that's what the public chooses.

As for the architecture statement, I didn't say it was impossible. I said it works best with a tall vehicle. The Model 3 in my garage has a higher hip point than the E39 BMW parked beside it, even though both cars are fairly similar in size. The Model 3 H point is about an inch higher than a Honda Accord by Car and Driver's measurements. It would be difficult to get the people any lower for all those other sporty, low options (which are...?). It's much easier for packaging engineers to deal with a floor that's thick when you've got more vertical room to play with.

I remember seeing some Lotus EV platform drawings. For bigger 4 seat cars they are going to use skateboard battery, but for dedicated 2 seat sports cars, they were planning to use a chest battery behind the passenger compartment, placing the driver low like in an ICE Car.

 

[Rick C.]

So you're supposed to be able to do serious off-roading with the Jeep Recon. This is the stuff I see on TV where they're crawling over giant rocks, inches at a time. How does an electric motor deal with that? Do they use massive torque converters to convert the high RPMs from the electric motor down to the low end 'grunt' you need for that kind of work? And how does it affect the battery?

You're mistaken in how the tech works. An EV motor doesn't rev high. They're usually single speed, and are top speed limited for that reason. All a motor's very plentiful torque is available from 0rpm. It would not need a torque converter and it would be ideal for low-speed offroad work. And a battery can discharge slowly or at its theoretical maximum depending on demand. It's the ideal drivetrain for offroad, with no real modification.

The spec on my ‘16 Fiat 500e is 11,000 rpm if what I read was just accurate.

 

[Snark218]

So you're supposed to be able to do serious off-roading with the Jeep Recon. This is the stuff I see on TV where they're crawling over giant rocks, inches at a time. How does an electric motor deal with that? Do they use massive torque converters to convert the high RPMs from the electric motor down to the low end 'grunt' you need for that kind of work? And how does it affect the battery?

You're mistaken in how the tech works. An EV motor doesn't rev high. They're usually single speed, and are top speed limited for that reason. All a motor's very plentiful torque is available from 0rpm. It would not need a torque converter and it would be ideal for low-speed offroad work. And a battery can discharge slowly or at its theoretical maximum depending on demand. It's the ideal drivetrain for offroad, with no real modification.

The spec on my ‘16 Fiat 500e is 11,000 rpm if what I read was just accurate.

Yes, but that's quite low for a final drive.

 

[snowman<ca>]

"Chrysler, which currently offers only the Pacifica minivan"

On one hand it is shocking to hear there is only one vehicle still under that badge, on the hand even back when they were a range of vehicles under it I can not remember the last model I would have had much interest in.

 

[bolomkxxviii]

Is that Recon ugly AF or is it just me?

 

[Ushio]

Given the QC issues that I've had with my 2020 Wrangler, I would hesitate to buy a complex EV from the brand, especially since it's one of their first efforts at one. Here's what has gone wrong on my wrangler in < 2 years/16k miles of ownership:

* One of the doors has developed a squeak on opening, which is due to an internal side impact brace that has come unglued (yes, unglued!) The only solution is to replace the door.
* The auto start-stop battery has given out, causing the system to stop working
* The plastic handle and trim to slide the front seat forward have broke off

All the above items will be covered under warranty, but don't bode well for long term reliability unless you're mechanically inclined.

On the other hand, the vehicle pretty much goes where pointed at off road - I have climbed 28 degree inclines without any fuss. It's a lot of fun too - having the doors and roof off is a blast.

EV's are vastly less complex than ICE vehicles.

Doors and trim aren't a power train issue and aren't really relevant to if a vehicle is an ICE or a BEV.

That doesn't mean Stelantis has any good idea on how to build one that lasts.

Also if EVs are so not complex, do tell us why they cost so much and make so little money for each OEMs first gen.

Batteries aren't cheap yet.

 

[jaberg]

I'm not sure her dad could even get in the 3 because he doesn't bend so well these days.

This is one of the primary factors that keeps me in the SUV camp. I have others, but regular chauffeur services for my parents are a genuine, “EDCar” thing for which I don’t have a workaround (like a trailer, or towed camper.)

My 89 year old father can, eventually and not without discomfort, get himself into my sister’s Outback. This requires a momentary “drop of faith” on his part. Getting him out of the car requires the efforts of both my brother-in-law and I, (neither who should really be putting the strain on our backs) and no small amount of pain and discomfort on Dad’s part.

Some will suggest a mini-van. I don’t care for them. (Though I did have a Chevy Astro many years ago.) In addition, like Keith, I spend a reasonable amount of time in various rough/off-road pursuits. I currently leave genuine “rock crawling” to my Series Land-Rover but as I age the appeal of using that to get back and forth decreases. (I like creature comforts. Take away my credentials.)

FWIW, I am on the lookout for a smaller, BEV daily driver for myself. However, if there can be but one vehicle in the garage, that’s going to have to be an SUV (or maybe a comfortable pickup truck) for the immediate future — based on a combination of circumstance and preference.

 

[Ushio]

They will if the states don't give them the choice. California is banning sales of new ICE vehicles.

All they have to do is say 'by 2035 the sale, purchase, use or ownership of any vehicle over 1500kg will be illegal'.

If people don't like it TOUGH! we really can't keep bending to the whims of the moronic GQP, anti-vaxxer and climate denier set anymore.

Well that would be one sure way to get this left-leaning, pro-vax, climate concerned citizen to join the “anti-government” movement. (Also, not a moron — my mom had me tested.)

Sorry. I use my SUV as an SUV. Regularly. I’d prefer it be all-electric, but if my hand is forced, I’ll keep the current gas burner as long as possible. And join the revolution if I must.

Ah yes the entitled 'I don't care about the future only me matters' that is so prevalent in American's.

We need to build more coal power stations and roll more coal the quicker humanity wipes itself out the sooner the Earth can start recovering and the sooner future life will have a chance.

Because I'm just done why bother sacrificing anything when a Jaberg will just buy a huge SUV and make all your conservation efforts over a year worthless in a weekend.

 

[Ushio]

They will if the states don't give them the choice. California is banning sales of new ICE vehicles.

All they have to do is say 'by 2035 the sale, purchase, use or ownership of any vehicle over 1500kg will be illegal'.

If people don't like it TOUGH! we really can't keep bending to the whims of the moronic GQP, anti-vaxxer and climate denier set anymore.

Well that would be one sure way to get this left-leaning, pro-vax, climate concerned citizen to join the “anti-government” movement. (Also, not a moron — my mom had me tested.)

Sorry. I use my SUV as an SUV. Regularly. I’d prefer it be all-electric, but if my hand is forced, I’ll keep the current gas burner as long as possible. And join the revolution if I must.

You would destroy our government just so you could continue to drive an SUV?

Entitlement it's the American way!

 

[dennis.kext]

I LOVE the Recon. I have an Orange Renegade Trailhawk and the Recon is like a bigger version with removable doors.... and CARGO space.
I'm concerned about the Avenger. I'm not sure what the difference is between this and the Fiat 500x, except it's a "Jeep"(I know the irony of a Renegade owner calling something a "Jeep"). I assume it's on the same FCA Small platform as my Renegade.
Nobody:
Stelantis: "Let's make another Renegade, but with less cargo volume!"?

 

[Ushio]

Regarding the issue of suvs and other ever larger vehicles that have proliferated in the last 25 or so years, there’s a substantial portion of the US population, as witnessed by posts here and more specifically on car specific websites, that are done with the supersizing and with those vehicle types in general. Like it or not, those are the facts. Some people are angry over the topic.

So don't buy an SUV. There are lots of subcompact options out there, in both EV and ICE configurations. Move on with your life.

You ever notice how SUV enthusiasts don't shit on the articles about subcompacts?

SUV enthusiasts get to walk away when they crush a subcompact.

 

[jaberg]

My old Land Rover has a gasoline range of somewhere around 100 miles. I've never had to fill it on the trail despite a bunch of wandering around Moab including overland trips back to Colorado.

Keith and I have similar rigs and my experience, both off-road and traveling, is largely the same. If I remember correctly, I chose to purchase and carry a 5 gallon can for one trip to and from the very edge of Canyonlands from Moab — but I genuinely don’t remember if I tapped into it or not. There was also a “weather related” issue in Maine when I finally stopped “pulling trucks through” behind me and got myself out to get fuel — and to shuttle fuel back to the trail for those still stuck. That was on a 12 mile stretch of logging road. Things got unexpectedly ugly.

But these were the exceptions, not the rule, in my 30ish years of off-road travel. 100 miles of off-road range would serve the vast majority of my needs in that department.

 

[Adreaver]

They will if the states don't give them the choice. California is banning sales of new ICE vehicles.

All they have to do is say 'by 2035 the sale, purchase, use or ownership of any vehicle over 1500kg will be illegal'.

If people don't like it TOUGH! we really can't keep bending to the whims of the moronic GQP, anti-vaxxer and climate denier set anymore.

Well that would be one sure way to get this left-leaning, pro-vax, climate concerned citizen to join the “anti-government” movement. (Also, not a moron — my mom had me tested.)

Sorry. I use my SUV as an SUV. Regularly. I’d prefer it be all-electric, but if my hand is forced, I’ll keep the current gas burner as long as possible. And join the revolution if I must.

Ah yes the entitled 'I don't care about the future only me matters' that is so prevalent in American's.

We need to build more coal power stations and roll more coal the quicker humanity wipes itself out the sooner the Earth can start recovering and the sooner future life will have a chance.

Because I'm just done why bother sacrificing anything when a Jaberg will just buy a huge SUV and make all your conservation efforts over a year worthless in a weekend.

You presented a completely unworkable (and bad for the environment) plan of "make it illegal to own or operate any vehicle over 1500 lbs by 2035". There are a number of cars on the road today that will be affordable used vehicles in 12 years. If you make those cars illegal, the pool of available used cars shrinks, prices rise, the people who can afford it pay the premium for the cars that are available, and the poor get shafted.

Meanwhile, you are junking all the existing ICEVs and producing smaller BEVs to replace them, when studies show the most environmentally sound car is the one you already own.

If you want to advocate for banning manufacture of ICEVs or SUVs or whatever, go ahead, but making my current mode of transport illegal will mean I lose my job (which is a union job with great benefits that I intend to work at for the next 30+ years), I can't feed my kids, and I will hate you and everything you stand for.

 

[Ushio]

They will if the states don't give them the choice. California is banning sales of new ICE vehicles.

All they have to do is say 'by 2035 the sale, purchase, use or ownership of any vehicle over 1500kg will be illegal'.

If people don't like it TOUGH! we really can't keep bending to the whims of the moronic GQP, anti-vaxxer and climate denier set anymore.

Well that would be one sure way to get this left-leaning, pro-vax, climate concerned citizen to join the “anti-government” movement. (Also, not a moron — my mom had me tested.)

Sorry. I use my SUV as an SUV. Regularly. I’d prefer it be all-electric, but if my hand is forced, I’ll keep the current gas burner as long as possible. And join the revolution if I must.

Ah yes the entitled 'I don't care about the future only me matters' that is so prevalent in American's.

We need to build more coal power stations and roll more coal the quicker humanity wipes itself out the sooner the Earth can start recovering and the sooner future life will have a chance.

Because I'm just done why bother sacrificing anything when a Jaberg will just buy a huge SUV and make all your conservation efforts over a year worthless in a weekend.

You presented a completely unworkable (and bad for the environment) plan of "make it illegal to own or operate any vehicle over 1500 lbs by 2035". There are a number of cars on the road today that will be affordable used vehicles in 12 years. If you make those cars illegal, the pool of available used cars shrinks, prices rise, the people who can afford it pay the premium for the cars that are available, and the poor get shafted.

Meanwhile, you are junking all the existing ICEVs and producing smaller BEVs to replace them, when studies show the most environmentally sound car is the one you already own.

If you want to advocate for banning manufacture of ICEVs or SUVs or whatever, go ahead, but making my current mode of transport illegal will mean I lose my job (which is a union job with great benefits that I intend to work at for the next 30+ years), I can't feed my kids, and I will hate you and everything you stand for.

1500kg it's right there in my post that's just over 3300lb's. It was also an example just change it too new sales and purchasing second hand out of state vehicles then.

But something has to be done.

 

[Adreaver]

They will if the states don't give them the choice. California is banning sales of new ICE vehicles.

All they have to do is say 'by 2035 the sale, purchase, use or ownership of any vehicle over 1500kg will be illegal'.

If people don't like it TOUGH! we really can't keep bending to the whims of the moronic GQP, anti-vaxxer and climate denier set anymore.

Well that would be one sure way to get this left-leaning, pro-vax, climate concerned citizen to join the “anti-government” movement. (Also, not a moron — my mom had me tested.)

Sorry. I use my SUV as an SUV. Regularly. I’d prefer it be all-electric, but if my hand is forced, I’ll keep the current gas burner as long as possible. And join the revolution if I must.

Ah yes the entitled 'I don't care about the future only me matters' that is so prevalent in American's.

We need to build more coal power stations and roll more coal the quicker humanity wipes itself out the sooner the Earth can start recovering and the sooner future life will have a chance.

Because I'm just done why bother sacrificing anything when a Jaberg will just buy a huge SUV and make all your conservation efforts over a year worthless in a weekend.

You presented a completely unworkable (and bad for the environment) plan of "make it illegal to own or operate any vehicle over 1500 lbs by 2035". There are a number of cars on the road today that will be affordable used vehicles in 12 years. If you make those cars illegal, the pool of available used cars shrinks, prices rise, the people who can afford it pay the premium for the cars that are available, and the poor get shafted.

Meanwhile, you are junking all the existing ICEVs and producing smaller BEVs to replace them, when studies show the most environmentally sound car is the one you already own.

If you want to advocate for banning manufacture of ICEVs or SUVs or whatever, go ahead, but making my current mode of transport illegal will mean I lose my job (which is a union job with great benefits that I intend to work at for the next 30+ years), I can't feed my kids, and I will hate you and everything you stand for.

1500kg it's right there in my post that's just over 3300lb's. It was also an example just change it too new sales and purchasing second hand out of state vehicles then.

But something has to be done.

Banning new sales and out of state used vehicle imports is a completely different proposition than banning the use of existing vehicles.

The first is "The thing you wanted to buy is not available for sale, you will need to buy something else".

The second is "We are going to take you out of your car, arrest and fine you for violating the law, and crush the car. Good luck."

One of those things most reasonable people will gladly get behind, provided there are exceptions for legitimate requirements (e.g. somebody running a landscaping business needs a larger vehicle capable of hauling their supplies and equipment). The other will spark riots.

 

[ChefJeff789]

Please stop with the SUVs.

Edit: I realize Jeep don't make cars but do we really need more SUVs?

Americans currently prefer larger vehicles like SUVs and trucks. There are obviously efficiency tradeoffs with that, but car manufacturers don't create market demand. If you want the American market to adopt electric vehicles, for the sake of the environment or what have you, giving them tiny compact go-karts isn't going to work. Americans won't buy them.

I foresee a switch to electric crossovers/SUVs, and then over time perhaps the appeal of longer range will drive the market back to smaller vehicles. But for now, due to the limited charging infrastructure already in the United States, the argument of electric SUV vs electric car range really isn't a major factor.

>>car manufacturers don't create market demand
I've heard this line of bull for forty years, it was bull in the seventies, and it's bull now. We can only buy what's manufactured -- and auto designers, marketers, executives and sales putzs are the ones obsessed with 'bigger=better". They give popular cars the equivalent of Cancer, bloating them beyond any sense of waht's desireable in a vehicle.

The original Mustang pony car sold like hotcakes, but by '79 the thing labeled Mustang was an overgrown pig of a death trap. Then the MustangII came out, and sold quite well.

The original Maverick was a decently sized vehicle, and sold well. The new Maverick mini-pickup has sold out, and not just because it's a BEV, but because it's a decent size.

I finally got my Maverick after waiting for 13 months. I friggin' LOVE this thing. I mostly bought it for the MPG, but it is a genuinely convincing do-it-all design and it's nice to have a truck that doesn't tower over every other vehicle next to you. I also have kids, so we can all pile in if I need to take them somewhere. It's small-ish, but still larger than the old Ranger. If they make an electric model with the same design, it will make a killing. I also think they could stand to make a slightly smaller model and it would still sell quite well.

 

[Jackattak]

If they make an electric model with the same design, it will make a killing. I also think they could stand to make a slightly smaller model and it would still sell quite well.

You're in luck. It'll be the next truck they electrify.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/ford-ra ... rademarks/

 

[Fabermetrics]

They will if the states don't give them the choice. California is banning sales of new ICE vehicles.

All they have to do is say 'by 2035 the sale, purchase, use or ownership of any vehicle over 1500kg will be illegal'.

If people don't like it TOUGH! we really can't keep bending to the whims of the moronic GQP, anti-vaxxer and climate denier set anymore.

Well that would be one sure way to get this left-leaning, pro-vax, climate concerned citizen to join the “anti-government” movement. (Also, not a moron — my mom had me tested.)

Sorry. I use my SUV as an SUV. Regularly. I’d prefer it be all-electric, but if my hand is forced, I’ll keep the current gas burner as long as possible. And join the revolution if I must.

Ah yes the entitled 'I don't care about the future only me matters' that is so prevalent in American's.

We need to build more coal power stations and roll more coal the quicker humanity wipes itself out the sooner the Earth can start recovering and the sooner future life will have a chance.

Because I'm just done why bother sacrificing anything when a Jaberg will just buy a huge SUV and make all your conservation efforts over a year worthless in a weekend.

You presented a completely unworkable (and bad for the environment) plan of "make it illegal to own or operate any vehicle over 1500 lbs by 2035". There are a number of cars on the road today that will be affordable used vehicles in 12 years. If you make those cars illegal, the pool of available used cars shrinks, prices rise, the people who can afford it pay the premium for the cars that are available, and the poor get shafted.

Meanwhile, you are junking all the existing ICEVs and producing smaller BEVs to replace them, when studies show the most environmentally sound car is the one you already own.

If you want to advocate for banning manufacture of ICEVs or SUVs or whatever, go ahead, but making my current mode of transport illegal will mean I lose my job (which is a union job with great benefits that I intend to work at for the next 30+ years), I can't feed my kids, and I will hate you and everything you stand for.

1500kg it's right there in my post that's just over 3300lb's. It was also an example just change it too new sales and purchasing second hand out of state vehicles then.

But something has to be done.

And how to do you expect to compensate all the men who will now have micro-penises without their lifted, scratchless pretty boy Ferd F-Teenthousands?

 

[Goofazoid]

I kinda dig that Recon.

I mean yeah; Wrangler or bust but hey; it don't look bad. I guess their stuff all has a samey kinda design.

I'd prefer a Wrangler, but the things that make a Wrangler a Wrangler also make it a terrible BEV platform. If the Recon can hit some of the same notes as the Wrangler in terms of off-road and adverse weather capability, aftermarket accessories, etc, while being designed in such a way to be more efficient as a BEV, that seems like a win-win.

I was very disappointed with the Wrangler 4xe. It only has around 20 miles of battery only and the mechanical drive train has remained. I was hoping for the ICE to be connected to a generation unit and there to be 4 electric drive motors, one for each wheel. Yeah I know, not full electric, but a great bridge until full electric is really ready for prime time.
/twocents

 

[ScifiGeek]

They will if the states don't give them the choice. California is banning sales of new ICE vehicles.

All they have to do is say 'by 2035 the sale, purchase, use or ownership of any vehicle over 1500kg will be illegal'.

If people don't like it TOUGH! we really can't keep bending to the whims of the moronic GQP, anti-vaxxer and climate denier set anymore.

Well that would be one sure way to get this left-leaning, pro-vax, climate concerned citizen to join the “anti-government” movement. (Also, not a moron — my mom had me tested.)

Sorry. I use my SUV as an SUV. Regularly. I’d prefer it be all-electric, but if my hand is forced, I’ll keep the current gas burner as long as possible. And join the revolution if I must.

Ah yes the entitled 'I don't care about the future only me matters' that is so prevalent in American's.

We need to build more coal power stations and roll more coal the quicker humanity wipes itself out the sooner the Earth can start recovering and the sooner future life will have a chance.

Because I'm just done why bother sacrificing anything when a Jaberg will just buy a huge SUV and make all your conservation efforts over a year worthless in a weekend.

You presented a completely unworkable (and bad for the environment) plan of "make it illegal to own or operate any vehicle over 1500 lbs by 2035". There are a number of cars on the road today that will be affordable used vehicles in 12 years. If you make those cars illegal, the pool of available used cars shrinks, prices rise, the people who can afford it pay the premium for the cars that are available, and the poor get shafted.

Meanwhile, you are junking all the existing ICEVs and producing smaller BEVs to replace them, when studies show the most environmentally sound car is the one you already own.

If you want to advocate for banning manufacture of ICEVs or SUVs or whatever, go ahead, but making my current mode of transport illegal will mean I lose my job (which is a union job with great benefits that I intend to work at for the next 30+ years), I can't feed my kids, and I will hate you and everything you stand for.

1500kg it's right there in my post that's just over 3300lb's. It was also an example just change it too new sales and purchasing second hand out of state vehicles then.

But something has to be done.

Banning new sales and out of state used vehicle imports is a completely different proposition than banning the use of existing vehicles.

The first is "The thing you wanted to buy is not available for sale, you will need to buy something else".

The second is "We are going to take you out of your car, arrest and fine you for violating the law, and crush the car. Good luck."

One of those things most reasonable people will gladly get behind, provided there are exceptions for legitimate requirements (e.g. somebody running a landscaping business needs a larger vehicle capable of hauling their supplies and equipment). The other will spark riots.

There are already limitations importing newish used cars:
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/handbook/ ... xemptions/

 

[Adreaver]

Well that would be one sure way to get this left-leaning, pro-vax, climate concerned citizen to join the “anti-government” movement. (Also, not a moron — my mom had me tested.)

Sorry. I use my SUV as an SUV. Regularly. I’d prefer it be all-electric, but if my hand is forced, I’ll keep the current gas burner as long as possible. And join the revolution if I must.

Ah yes the entitled 'I don't care about the future only me matters' that is so prevalent in American's.

We need to build more coal power stations and roll more coal the quicker humanity wipes itself out the sooner the Earth can start recovering and the sooner future life will have a chance.

Because I'm just done why bother sacrificing anything when a Jaberg will just buy a huge SUV and make all your conservation efforts over a year worthless in a weekend.

You presented a completely unworkable (and bad for the environment) plan of "make it illegal to own or operate any vehicle over 1500 lbs by 2035". There are a number of cars on the road today that will be affordable used vehicles in 12 years. If you make those cars illegal, the pool of available used cars shrinks, prices rise, the people who can afford it pay the premium for the cars that are available, and the poor get shafted.

Meanwhile, you are junking all the existing ICEVs and producing smaller BEVs to replace them, when studies show the most environmentally sound car is the one you already own.

If you want to advocate for banning manufacture of ICEVs or SUVs or whatever, go ahead, but making my current mode of transport illegal will mean I lose my job (which is a union job with great benefits that I intend to work at for the next 30+ years), I can't feed my kids, and I will hate you and everything you stand for.

1500kg it's right there in my post that's just over 3300lb's. It was also an example just change it too new sales and purchasing second hand out of state vehicles then.

But something has to be done.

Banning new sales and out of state used vehicle imports is a completely different proposition than banning the use of existing vehicles.

The first is "The thing you wanted to buy is not available for sale, you will need to buy something else".

The second is "We are going to take you out of your car, arrest and fine you for violating the law, and crush the car. Good luck."

One of those things most reasonable people will gladly get behind, provided there are exceptions for legitimate requirements (e.g. somebody running a landscaping business needs a larger vehicle capable of hauling their supplies and equipment). The other will spark riots.

There are already limitations importing newish used cars:
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/handbook/ ... xemptions/

Right - exactly what I'm advocating for. Stop people from buying the thing you don't want them to buy, then eventually that thing will be gone, as no new ones will be made, and the old ones will eventually fall into disrepair and be scrapped.

Making the use of existing vehicles illegal overnight serves nobody. Not the people, who have to spend money on a new car they didn't need the day before, not the state, who has to deal with enforcement and repo operations against a justifiably enraged populace, and not the environment, which has to bear the externalities of both the disposal of a bunch of servicable vehicles as well as the production of newer vehicles to replace them.

 

[Berger_Fan]

My old Land Rover has a gasoline range of somewhere around 100 miles. I've never had to fill it on the trail despite a bunch of wandering around Moab including overland trips back to Colorado.

Keith and I have similar rigs and my experience, both off-road and traveling, is largely the same. If I remember correctly, I chose to purchase and carry a 5 gallon can for one trip to and from the very edge of Canyonlands from Moab — but I genuinely don’t remember if I tapped into it or not. There was also a “weather related” issue in Maine when I finally stopped “pulling trucks through” behind me and got myself out to get fuel — and to shuttle fuel back to the trail for those still stuck. That was on a 12 mile stretch of logging road. Things got unexpectedly ugly.

But these were the exceptions, not the rule, in my 30ish years of off-road travel. 100 miles of off-road range would serve the vast majority of my needs in that department.

I've got a 1944 Willy's Army Jeep and an '01 Cherokee. In the 35+ years that I've owned the Willy's I've tapped the 5 gal can once. I use the Cherokee as a tow vehicle 2 - 3 times a year. My long tow is 200 miles. As of yet there are no good charging options along that route (There are a handful of level 2 chargers but no DC chargers yet.) The Willy's and it's 1/4 ton trailer loaded on the 16' tandem axle trailer with my gear for the weekend is about 4800#. There's not yet any BEVs on the market with the range and capacity for that trip so the Cherokee soldiers on. Hopefully one of these Jeeps will have the range & towing capacity I need before the Cherokee dies.

Our daily drivers are a pair of 2017 Bolt's. I've made 3 long (multi day) trips in the one with DC charging. Even with the slow charge rate of the Bolt (maxes out at 54 kWh) those trips didn't take significantly longer then comparable trips in an ICE.

 

[Jackattak]

Is that Recon ugly AF or is it just me?

Well I can't tell if you're ugly or not since this is the Internet. But I don't find the Recon ugly at all. As a matter of fact, I'd hit that like Will on Chris.

 

[johnt007871]

Please stop with the SUVs.

Edit: I realize Jeep don't make cars but do we really need more SUVs?

There was a time when an American sedan hauled 6 people and could easily have a hitch added to tow a trailer. Thanks to fuel economy standards and bumper regulations, the sedan is now a compact 4 person hauler. Thus the rise of the gigantic sedan replacement pickup and SUV. A lot of Americans have watercraft and/or campers they like to use and they need a vehicle capable of towing same.

Not even just towing stuff. We go to the beach regularly so with my wife and I and 2 kids, plus luggage, strollers, pack and play, etc a sedan just doesn't work. We made due with my Subaru Impreza hatch for a while but it got to the point where it was difficult to go to the grocery store with all of us and all of our crap in the car. Need paper towels or TP? Can't, stroller and car seats take up too much space.

I've been watching this space for a while because I would like to trade in my Impreza at some point for something halfway between it and our CX-9. A BEV for for daily driving and saving the big gas SUV for trips and shopping sounds great.

 

[keltor]

They will if the states don't give them the choice. California is banning sales of new ICE vehicles.

All they have to do is say 'by 2035 the sale, purchase, use or ownership of any vehicle over 1500kg will be illegal'.

If people don't like it TOUGH! we really can't keep bending to the whims of the moronic GQP, anti-vaxxer and climate denier set anymore.

Well that would be one sure way to get this left-leaning, pro-vax, climate concerned citizen to join the “anti-government” movement. (Also, not a moron — my mom had me tested.)

Sorry. I use my SUV as an SUV. Regularly. I’d prefer it be all-electric, but if my hand is forced, I’ll keep the current gas burner as long as possible. And join the revolution if I must.

Ah yes the entitled 'I don't care about the future only me matters' that is so prevalent in American's.

We need to build more coal power stations and roll more coal the quicker humanity wipes itself out the sooner the Earth can start recovering and the sooner future life will have a chance.

Because I'm just done why bother sacrificing anything when a Jaberg will just buy a huge SUV and make all your conservation efforts over a year worthless in a weekend.

You presented a completely unworkable (and bad for the environment) plan of "make it illegal to own or operate any vehicle over 1500 lbs by 2035". There are a number of cars on the road today that will be affordable used vehicles in 12 years. If you make those cars illegal, the pool of available used cars shrinks, prices rise, the people who can afford it pay the premium for the cars that are available, and the poor get shafted.

Meanwhile, you are junking all the existing ICEVs and producing smaller BEVs to replace them, when studies show the most environmentally sound car is the one you already own.

If you want to advocate for banning manufacture of ICEVs or SUVs or whatever, go ahead, but making my current mode of transport illegal will mean I lose my job (which is a union job with great benefits that I intend to work at for the next 30+ years), I can't feed my kids, and I will hate you and everything you stand for.

1500kg it's right there in my post that's just over 3300lb's. It was also an example just change it too new sales and purchasing second hand out of state vehicles then.

But something has to be done.

Banning new sales and out of state used vehicle imports is a completely different proposition than banning the use of existing vehicles.

The first is "The thing you wanted to buy is not available for sale, you will need to buy something else".

The second is "We are going to take you out of your car, arrest and fine you for violating the law, and crush the car. Good luck."

One of those things most reasonable people will gladly get behind, provided there are exceptions for legitimate requirements (e.g. somebody running a landscaping business needs a larger vehicle capable of hauling their supplies and equipment). The other will spark riots.

Things will have to change and the changes will probably be unpleasant no matter what. The last ~6 years suggest that mass rioting will be unlikely.

 

[FreeRangeOrganicSoyLatteCappuccino]

Things will have to change and the changes will probably be unpleasant no matter what. The last ~6 years suggest that mass rioting will be unlikely.

What about the last 6 years makes you think mass rioting is unlikely?

BLM riots?
CHAZ/CHOP?
The Jan 6th Insurrection?

 

[Virgilante]

I'd prefer a Wrangler, but the things that make a Wrangler a Wrangler also make it a terrible BEV platform. If the Recon can hit some of the same notes as the Wrangler in terms of off-road and adverse weather capability, aftermarket accessories, etc, while being designed in such a way to be more efficient as a BEV, that seems like a win-win.

Yeah - I have a 4xe and it's great for what is it, but the Wrangler also has the aerodynamics of a sideways box truck and there's no design tweaks that can change that without also triggering a PR firestorm. Eventually they'll need to release a BEV Wrangler, and it'll end up with half the range as everything comparable, but maybe battery tech will be evolved enough to where it's still "enough" by that point.

 

[ScifiGeek]

I'd prefer a Wrangler, but the things that make a Wrangler a Wrangler also make it a terrible BEV platform. If the Recon can hit some of the same notes as the Wrangler in terms of off-road and adverse weather capability, aftermarket accessories, etc, while being designed in such a way to be more efficient as a BEV, that seems like a win-win.

Yeah - I have a 4xe and it's great for what is it, but the Wrangler also has the aerodynamics of a sideways box truck and there's no design tweaks that can change that without also triggering a PR firestorm. Eventually they'll need to release a BEV Wrangler, and it'll end up with half the range as everything comparable, but maybe battery tech will be evolved enough to where it's still "enough" by that point.

I glad they did this. Because I really want IFS, and the diehards would have an aneurism if they add IFS to the Wrangler. Now they can have a more modern variant for everyone else and keep the original for the diehards.

 

[rhy7s]

Please stop with the SUVs.

Edit: I realize Jeep don't make cars but do we really need more SUVs?

... A lot of Americans have watercraft and/or campers they like to use and they need a vehicle capable of towing same.

Do you have any statistics to define "a lot"? To me it seems the same as many other segments that have seen a collapse of choice in the name of "consumer demand", there isn't a choice and marketing and salespeople push hard to sell what is available.

 

[Adreaver]

Things will have to change and the changes will probably be unpleasant no matter what. The last ~6 years suggest that mass rioting will be unlikely.

1. Why do they have to be unpleasant? A functioning government could properly tax the people creating the negative externalities while subsidizing those too poor to get on board with the environmentally-friendly solutions.

2. Why do you think rioting is unlikely?

If the government takes away my car without providing me an alternative, I will lose my job due to having no transportation there. Without a car, I can't reasonably find work in my area. If I can find something WFH quickly enough I might land on my feet, but that's a big if. If I don't, I'll quickly be homeless, and then I'll have nothing to do and all the time in the world to do it, which makes rioting against the people who ruined my life much more palatable.

Want to save the planet? Come up with an environmentally friendly solution that doesn't create a class war.

 

[Snark218]

Given the QC issues that I've had with my 2020 Wrangler, I would hesitate to buy a complex EV from the brand, especially since it's one of their first efforts at one. Here's what has gone wrong on my wrangler in < 2 years/16k miles of ownership:

* One of the doors has developed a squeak on opening, which is due to an internal side impact brace that has come unglued (yes, unglued!) The only solution is to replace the door.
* The auto start-stop battery has given out, causing the system to stop working
* The plastic handle and trim to slide the front seat forward have broke off

All the above items will be covered under warranty, but don't bode well for long term reliability unless you're mechanically inclined.

On the other hand, the vehicle pretty much goes where pointed at off road - I have climbed 28 degree inclines without any fuss. It's a lot of fun too - having the doors and roof off is a blast.

EV's are vastly less complex than ICE vehicles.

Doors and trim aren't a power train issue and aren't really relevant to if a vehicle is an ICE or a BEV.

That doesn't mean Stelantis has any good idea on how to build one that lasts.

Also if EVs are so not complex, do tell us why they cost so much and make so little money for each OEMs first gen.

There are reasons besides mechanical complexity that make EVs expensive, to wit: the price and supply of the primary material of the battery.

 

[Emmeran the Elder]

I kinda dig that Recon.

I mean yeah; Wrangler or bust but hey; it don't look bad. I guess their stuff all has a samey kinda design.

Can we just have a Jeep type jeep again? Just a motor (any sort) and seats with a heater. Must be 2 door with 4-wheel drive and cute in an ugly kind of way. Point A to Point B regardless of what's in-between

 

[rhy7s]

Sorry. I use my SUV as an SUV. Regularly. I’d prefer it be all-electric, but if my hand is forced, I’ll keep the current gas burner as long as possible. And join the revolution if I must.

Could you define your use case that requires the SUV form factor? I live in area that sees plenty of people driving very rugged unsealed roads and beyond the roadhead on beaches and informal tracks in 2wd hatchbacks and vans. The second hand market now makes it harder to replace those form factors, so there is an increase in utes that would still be considered small in America but are still a compromise if you're looking for light weight and a simple drivetrain or maximising cargo space. The people in really inaccessible spots are on quads or horses, some have enough to get an ATV.

 

[Snark218]

I kinda dig that Recon.

I mean yeah; Wrangler or bust but hey; it don't look bad. I guess their stuff all has a samey kinda design.

Can we just have a Jeep type jeep again? Just a motor (any sort) and seats with a heater. Must be 2 door with 4-wheel drive and cute in an ugly kind of way. Point A to Point B regardless of what's in-between

What you're describing is a UTV along the lines of a Polaris Ranger. Which, to be fair, I think Jeep could sell, successfully. But it's been a very, very long time since Jeep sold anything of the sort, and it's been selling a range of off-road-oriented lifestyle vehicles for considerably longer than it was selling the Willys or CJ.

So maybe it's time for you to update your impression of what a "Jeep type Jeep" is, and recognize that they've been selling Wranglers, Cherokees, Grand Cherokees, and Wagoneers longer than they ever sold warmed-over WW2 surplus? Just a thought. Being a stuck in the mud purist has always been a commitment to being frustrated, but as we transition to EVs it will be even more so.

 

[Snark218]

Sorry. I use my SUV as an SUV. Regularly. I’d prefer it be all-electric, but if my hand is forced, I’ll keep the current gas burner as long as possible. And join the revolution if I must.

Could you define your use case that requires the SUV form factor? I live in area that sees plenty of people driving very rugged unsealed roads and beyond the roadhead on beaches and informal tracks in 2wd hatchbacks and vans. The second hand market now makes it harder to replace those form factors, so there is an increase in utes that would still be considered small in America but are still a compromise if you're looking for light weight and a simple drivetrain or maximising cargo space. The people in really inaccessible spots are on quads or horses, some have enough to get an ATV.

Nobody has to justify themselves to you because your very different locality approaches its very different needs, differently. My guess is none of your neighbors are driving any of their solutions to their use case 300 miles at 75mph before tackling those unsealed roads and tracks, if you need a starting point for empathizing with unfamiliar use cases.

 

[rhy7s]

Nobody has to justify themselves to you because your very different locality approaches its very different needs, differently. My guess is none of your neighbors are driving any of their solutions to their use case 300 miles at 75mph before tackling those unsealed roads and tracks, if you need a starting point for empathizing with unfamiliar use cases.

Not on a quad or a horse, but that's the distance to our main city that people will drive to if the vehicle's still legal.

 

[Adreaver]

I kinda dig that Recon.

I mean yeah; Wrangler or bust but hey; it don't look bad. I guess their stuff all has a samey kinda design.

Can we just have a Jeep type jeep again? Just a motor (any sort) and seats with a heater. Must be 2 door with 4-wheel drive and cute in an ugly kind of way. Point A to Point B regardless of what's in-between

What you're describing is a UTV along the lines of a Polaris Ranger. Which, to be fair, I think Jeep could sell, successfully. But it's been a very, very long time since Jeep sold anything of the sort, and it's been selling a range of off-road-oriented lifestyle vehicles for considerably longer than it was selling the Willys or CJ.

So maybe it's time for you to update your impression of what a "Jeep type Jeep" is, and recognize that they've been selling Wranglers, Cherokees, Grand Cherokees, and Wagoneers longer than they ever sold warmed-over WW2 surplus? Just a thought. Being a stuck in the mud purist has always been a commitment to being frustrated, but as we transition to EVs it will be even more so.

Wrangler Sport. Still looks basically the same as Jeeps from the 80s.

They are still selling it, and there is a new 2023 model.

They never stopped selling "Jeep-type-Jeeps", they just added some other models (which happen to be more broadly popular).

 

[Snark218]

Nobody has to justify themselves to you because your very different locality approaches its very different needs, differently. My guess is none of your neighbors are driving any of their solutions to their use case 300 miles at 75mph before tackling those unsealed roads and tracks, if you need a starting point for empathizing with unfamiliar use cases.

Not on a quad or a horse, but that's the distance to our main city that people will drive to if the vehicle's still legal.

I doubt that, but I wasn't actually looking for more information about your use case; the point of my reply is to request that you not judge the validity of our use cases on the basis of yours.

 

[Snark218]

I kinda dig that Recon.

I mean yeah; Wrangler or bust but hey; it don't look bad. I guess their stuff all has a samey kinda design.

Can we just have a Jeep type jeep again? Just a motor (any sort) and seats with a heater. Must be 2 door with 4-wheel drive and cute in an ugly kind of way. Point A to Point B regardless of what's in-between

What you're describing is a UTV along the lines of a Polaris Ranger. Which, to be fair, I think Jeep could sell, successfully. But it's been a very, very long time since Jeep sold anything of the sort, and it's been selling a range of off-road-oriented lifestyle vehicles for considerably longer than it was selling the Willys or CJ.

So maybe it's time for you to update your impression of what a "Jeep type Jeep" is, and recognize that they've been selling Wranglers, Cherokees, Grand Cherokees, and Wagoneers longer than they ever sold warmed-over WW2 surplus? Just a thought. Being a stuck in the mud purist has always been a commitment to being frustrated, but as we transition to EVs it will be even more so.

Wrangler Sport. Still looks basically the same as Jeeps from the 80s.

They are still selling it, and there is a new 2023 model.

They never stopped selling "Jeep-type-Jeeps", they just added some other models (which happen to be more broadly popular).

Even that is a pretty far leap past "motor and a heater and goes anywhere," which no Jeep has been for 40+ years.