Abuse of power problem for Apple?

wrylachlan

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If there's consumer harm, then prove it, otherwise it's all BS.
??? What does “consumer harm” have to do with anything? That’s not the regulatory standard in the EU.
Then what's the rationalization for this govt. intervention?

For whom are they intervening?
For their citizens. Markets do a lot more than just provide goods to consumers. They provide employment to producers and distributors. They provide opportunities for investors and entrepreneurs.

And markets have long impacts. There can be market distortions that are pro-consumer in the short term but bad for consumers in the long term. Product dumping is a great example. While the dumping is happening it’s sun and roses for the consumer as they get goods cheap. But if the dumping is successful it guts local industries and when those go out of business the prices can rise higher than they were before.

What’s the rationale for restricting the regulation of markets to “what’s good for consumers in the short term.”
 
You can't prove ANY consumer harm that people aren't allowed to have third party apps which use the NFC.

No consumers are demanding that, only potential competitors who want to offer such apps.

That's not a better consumer experience, to sort through different apps for different stores.


Consumers are addicted to phones, which has its own problems. But the current prices for devices and services aren't deterring massive adoption and use.


EU hasn't proven any consumer harm but they can write laws for whatever standard so that is why they did, because existing antitrust laws require showing consumer harm.

So the law is arbitrarily written only to target large US tech companies, because they set the bar too high for most EU tech companies.

Anybody who can't see this is a mercantilist move to weaken foreign companies, specifically US companies, for the benefit of EU companies are in denial. They tailored it so that it would only apply to US tech companies.

If an EU company worth only $70 billion in market cap decided to engage in anticompetitive and abusive practices, they can't be prosecuted under this law.

Funny how that works, isn't it?

You really don't think there are any consumer who would use Google Wallet/Google Pay if it were available on iPhone? I'm not in the EU and I wish it were on there. We'd certainly use it on my wife's phone instead of Apple.


They can use Android, and most EU consumers opt for Android.

It's ridiculous, like Amazon demanding that their shows be allowed on Netflix.

No...it is nothing like that. It is more like Amazon demanding that their shows be allowed to be streamed on an iPhone and not just AppleTV.
 
If there's consumer harm, then prove it, otherwise it's all BS.
??? What does “consumer harm” have to do with anything? That’s not the regulatory standard in the EU.


Then what's the rationalization for this govt. intervention?

For whom are they intervening?

People who want to use Google Wallet/Google Pay on their iPhone?

Developers who want an app store that takes a smaller cut?


You know..kinda of like the people who want to use Google Maps instead of Apple Maps...and they can. People want to watch Netflix and not just AppleTV...and they can. People who want to use Spotify and not Apple music...and they can.

you know...like that.
 

Megalodon

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Something else interesting I saw about the proposed EU law, it also allows the EU to impose other remedies or even break up companies. In that case Apple would likely be forced to spin off the app store as a separate company. Collecting huge fines isn't the goal, creating healthy markets is. The separate app store company would then have to compete on equal footing with other app stores.
 
There's no groundswell of consumers demanding competing app stores or side loading. Nor people demanding that other parties get access to the NFC. Who wants that other than maybe some store chains? Nobody wants to open an app for different stores to make a contactless payment.

:raises hand: I would have liked to be able to unlock my Tesla via NFC instead of Bluetooth, like Android users get; have been able to use my phone as my apartment entry Fob; Use it with NFC door locks for home automation - there’s lots of opportunity out there, but Apple blocks the “card emulator” profile or whatever it’s called.

There’s people who want sideloading, especially for emulators. Not everyone likes Apple’s complicated gatekeeper process. Just let consumers do it with some warnings like they currently do on macOS!
 
D

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There’s people who want sideloading, especially for emulators. Not everyone likes Apple’s complicated gatekeeper process. Just let consumers do it with some warnings like they currently do on macOS!

Too right. Fuck the people who paid a premium for a curated platform. Let them have the Android experience as nature intended!
 

wco81

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There’s people who want sideloading, especially for emulators. Not everyone likes Apple’s complicated gatekeeper process. Just let consumers do it with some warnings like they currently do on macOS!

Too right. Fuck the people who paid a premium for a curated platform. Let them have the Android experience as nature intended!


Right, the maybe .5% who want to jailbreak or run warez should be catered to. :rolleyes:
 
There’s people who want sideloading, especially for emulators. Not everyone likes Apple’s complicated gatekeeper process. Just let consumers do it with some warnings like they currently do on macOS!

Too right. Fuck the people who paid a premium for a curated platform. Let them have the Android experience as nature intended!

Who is arguing against curation? No one is saying allow sideloading as the default. That is silly to be against. Sideloading being allowed doesn't change those who don't want it's device at all.
 
There’s people who want sideloading, especially for emulators. Not everyone likes Apple’s complicated gatekeeper process. Just let consumers do it with some warnings like they currently do on macOS!

Too right. Fuck the people who paid a premium for a curated platform. Let them have the Android experience as nature intended!


Right, the maybe .5% who want to jailbreak or run warez should be catered to. :rolleyes:

You're right. That's the only reason for it and definitely why the Mac and Windows have it. Let's get rid of it on there too! One of the stupidest posts I've ever seen here. :rolleyes:

Some people who actually do work with computers instead of playing some weak games or watching videos, would like to be able to program/develop, install VMs, run browsers other than Safari, flash chips, etc. Things you currently can't do and Apple doesn't allow in the store.
 

wco81

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There’s people who want sideloading, especially for emulators. Not everyone likes Apple’s complicated gatekeeper process. Just let consumers do it with some warnings like they currently do on macOS!

Too right. Fuck the people who paid a premium for a curated platform. Let them have the Android experience as nature intended!


Right, the maybe .5% who want to jailbreak or run warez should be catered to. :rolleyes:

You're right. That's the only reason for it and definitely why the Mac and Windows have it. Let's get rid of it on there too! One of the stupidest posts I've ever seen here. :rolleyes:

Some people who actually do work with computers instead of playing some weak games or watching videos, would like to be able to program/develop, install VMs, run browsers other than Safari, flash chips, etc. Things you currently can't do and Apple doesn't allow in the store.

Then get a fucking Android device.
 

wrylachlan

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There’s people who want sideloading, especially for emulators. Not everyone likes Apple’s complicated gatekeeper process. Just let consumers do it with some warnings like they currently do on macOS!

Too right. Fuck the people who paid a premium for a curated platform. Let them have the Android experience as nature intended!


Right, the maybe .5% who want to jailbreak or run warez should be catered to. :rolleyes:

You're right. That's the only reason for it and definitely why the Mac and Windows have it. Let's get rid of it on there too! One of the stupidest posts I've ever seen here. :rolleyes:

Some people who actually do work with computers instead of playing some weak games or watching videos, would like to be able to program/develop, install VMs, run browsers other than Safari, flash chips, etc. Things you currently can't do and Apple doesn't allow in the store.

Then get a fucking Android device.
Or vote for politicians who aren’t techno-libertarian bros.

Wanting control of the thing you paid for is not an unreasonable request…
 

Louis XVI

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I genuinely don't understand why folks are getting worked up about this, as the stakes are so very small.

Want a device that you have full control over? There's Android for that. On the flip side, like the iPhone the way it is? Ignore whatever new capabilities are added and continue using Apple's stock options. I really don't see this having a big impact on anybody's life, however it goes down.

And I really don't understand any principled moral umbrage on Apple's behalf. They're Apple! The biggest, richest corporation on the planet! However this goes down, they'll be fine; they don't need us worrying about their wellbeing.
 

lithven

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I genuinely don't understand why folks are getting worked up about this, as the stakes are so very small.

Want a device that you have full control over? There's Android for that. On the flip side, like the iPhone the way it is? Ignore whatever new capabilities are added and continue using Apple's stock options. I really don't see this having a big impact on anybody's life, however it goes down.

And I really don't understand any principled moral umbrage on Apple's behalf. They're Apple! The biggest, richest corporation on the planet! However this goes down, they'll be fine; they don't need us worrying about their wellbeing.
I understand if someone has chosen the Apple ecosystem for another reason (iMessage, UI, privacy, etc.) but still want something a little more open (e.g. xcrunner529's Tesla example). In those cases, "use Android" isn't really an argument.
 
I genuinely don't understand why folks are getting worked up about this, as the stakes are so very small.

Want a device that you have full control over? There's Android for that. On the flip side, like the iPhone the way it is? Ignore whatever new capabilities are added and continue using Apple's stock options. I really don't see this having a big impact on anybody's life, however it goes down.

And I really don't understand any principled moral umbrage on Apple's behalf. They're Apple! The biggest, richest corporation on the planet! However this goes down, they'll be fine; they don't need us worrying about their wellbeing.
I understand if someone has chosen the Apple ecosystem for another reason (iMessage, UI, privacy, etc.) but still want something a little more open (e.g. xcrunner529's Tesla example). In those cases, "use Android" isn't really an argument.

Yes it’s fucking weird for someone to get worked up because I want new features and would prefer my current ecosystem get better. I don’t feel like nuking the planet just because of some pollution. I want to work within and I’m allowed to desire more open features to match Apple’s *other OS*
 
D

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Yes it’s fucking weird for someone to get worked up because I want new features and would prefer my current ecosystem get better. I don’t feel like nuking the planet just because of some pollution. I want to work within and I’m allowed to desire more open features to match Apple’s *other OS*

The bit I don't get is if you don't like it why not change?
For example: my first smartphone was an n900. Then I got a nexus 4, and then I got an iPhone.

I don't get why you expect the company to change and not you?
I mean did you enter into the business arrangement with Apple on the basis that they would be freeing up the NFC chip and the payment shit and feel cheated that they haven't followed through?

Because I never got that impression myself...

I also as an aside find it hilariously ironic that none of you are up in arms about the fact that stuff like gsm and all that is locked up tighter than a gnats chuff between all the chipset vendors, all the telcos, and all the Government control over broadcasting and telephony etc. i.e. the very stuff that essentially makes a mobile phone a mobile PHONE, and are instead getting steamed up over all the ancillary extraneous shite that vendors decided they would make part of the whole thing in order to tempt you into giving them even more money!
 

lithven

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I also as an aside find it hilariously ironic that none of you are up in arms about the fact that stuff like gsm and all that is locked up tighter than a gnats chuff between all the chipset vendors, all the telcos, and all the Government control over broadcasting and telephony etc. i.e. the very stuff that essentially makes a mobile phone a mobile PHONE, and are instead getting steamed up over all the ancillary extraneous shite that vendors decided they would make part of the whole thing in order to tempt you into giving them even more money!
Make a thread about poor chipset choices, bad IP law, restrictive and expensive licensing to be compliant with a "standard", and other monopolistic practices and I'll be right there with you saying we need change. Having said that, I don't think EM spectrum should be a wild west with the person with the biggest transmitter wins. So, some regulation and forced standardization makes sense to me.
 
D

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The other big elephant in the room, something the EU haven't got an issue with, is their pricing strategy. I'd love to see some investigation over whether the per unit profit margin of literally everything they make isn't an actual "abuse of power".

Fair play wrt to the charger thing, but no - ignore the pricing and go off about contactless payments...
 

Megalodon

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Who is arguing against curation? No one is saying allow sideloading as the default. That is silly to be against. Sideloading being allowed doesn't change those who don't want it's device at all.
I think there is a completely legitimate concern that certain popular apps will attempt to funnel users to sideloading mechanisms and thereby expose users to many of the problems Apple sought to avoid with the review process such as privacy abuses, hot phone/dead battery type issues, and so on. This is the peril Apple created when they allowed their financial interest in collecting rent to become entangled with the user's interest in avoiding those problems. Seems to me the fact that these problems are indeed problems should not be controversial, the only disagreement is who is responsible. wco81 and others believe Apple should be allowed to do as they see fit with no restraint. My take is that sufficiently onerous terms were never going to be tolerated by policymakers in the long term, which means Apple made this inevitable.

The fact I'm in the midst of being proven correct does not appear to have persuaded people like wco81 that my analysis from the policy perspective is a good one, even though as noted, I am in fact correct. The discussion seems to skip right over that part and into a philosophical argument over infantile notions like whether laissez faire economic policy can avoid bad outcomes like privacy violating apps and the Earth becoming uninhabitable to humans.
 

Chris FOM

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Who is arguing against curation? No one is saying allow sideloading as the default. That is silly to be against. Sideloading being allowed doesn't change those who don't want it's device at all.
I think there is a completely legitimate concern that certain popular apps will attempt to funnel users to sideloading mechanisms and thereby expose users to many of the problems Apple sought to avoid with the review process such as privacy abuses, hot phone/dead battery type issues, and so on. This is the peril Apple created when they allowed their financial interest in collecting rent to become entangled with the user's interest in avoiding those problems. Seems to me the fact that these problems are indeed problems should not be controversial, the only disagreement is who is responsible. wco81 and others believe Apple should be allowed to do as they see fit with no restraint. My take is that sufficiently onerous terms were never going to be tolerated by policymakers in the long term, which means Apple made this inevitable.

The fact I'm in the midst of being proven correct does not appear to have persuaded people like wco81 that my analysis from the policy perspective is a good one, even though as noted, I am in fact correct. The discussion seems to skip right over that part and into a philosophical argument over infantile notions like whether laissez faire economic policy can avoid bad outcomes like privacy violating apps and the Earth becoming uninhabitable to humans.

That’s it exactly. Forcing Apple to open up the iPhone has real potential to make it worse for me as a user. Most of the time and in most cases (but not all) I LIKE the fact that the iPhone is closed and there are limits to what third parties can do. And if Apple is forced to open it there are third parties that will try to force me into their alternative uses, so this isn’t just adding choice for other users, it’s taking away my ability to have the ecosystem I deliberately chose to buy into.

But Apple’s heavy-handed demands to have their cake and eat it too, to lock the system down while maintaining their ability to extract maximum revenue from the App Store and related services made this inevitable, since something was going to give. And Apple unwillingness to meaningfully compromise meant that instead of a measured and careful retreat on their terms, giving up some things while keeping others, to create what could have been an acceptable-table compromise, instead is being forced on them by outside regulators that don’t seem to be interested in nuance or overly concerned about unintended consequences. I’m annoyed that the EU is taking such a heavy-handed approach that doesn’t really seem to be carefully considered at all (how exactly are you supposed to open up an end-to-end encrypted chat protocol to third parties while adequately ensuring they don’t utterly break that encryption?), but I’m far more upset that Apple decided to throw me under the bus in pursuit of finding every last dime they could, which is how it came to this in the first place.

Nevermind the potential consequences for this to spread further. It’s really hard to make a principled distinction between forcing Apple to open up the iPhone while allowing MS, Nintendo, and Sony to keep their consoles completely locked down. There’s actually a lot to unpack here not just for Apple, not just for phones, but for the entire concept of walled garden platforms and what control is acceptable from platform holders.

But rather than discussing that we’ve got emotional breakdowns from people who are way too personally invested in defending the multi-trillion dollar companies whining about how nobody’s treating them fair and the mean old EU is just jealous of American tech companies. Which, even if I grant that every single word of that is true, so what? The EU inarguably has the authority to do this, even if their motives are entirely inappropriate, so let’s get into the actual ramifications. Because otherwise any chance for real discussion is completely choked out by the tantrums.
 
But Apple’s heavy-handed demands to have their cake and eat it too, to lock the system down while maintaining their ability to extract maximum revenue from the App Store and related services made this inevitable, since something was going to give. And Apple unwillingness to meaningfully compromise meant that instead of a measured and careful retreat on their terms, giving up some things while keeping others, to create what could have been an acceptable-table compromise, instead is being forced on them by outside regulators that don’t seem to be interested in nuance or overly concerned about unintended consequences. I’m annoyed that the EU is taking such a heavy-handed approach that doesn’t really seem to be carefully considered at all (how exactly are you supposed to open up an end-to-end encrypted chat protocol to third parties while adequately ensuring they don’t utterly break that encryption?), but I’m far more upset that Apple decided to throw me under the bus in pursuit of finding every last dime they could, which is how it came to this in the first place.

Exactly. I am not *that* obsessed with needing sideloading, but I’d like it and I’m not shedding a tear with Apple/Cook’s obsession with every penny is now causing issues for them and their policies. They had numerous opportunities to give a little and take some of the attention off and instead they gambled because they’re that fucking greedy.

Regardless, I find all the arguments about sideloading funny because Apple literally has another OS that does allow it and things are just fine. Try some more strawmen, please.
 
Eu doesn’t have the right to confiscate money arbitrarily.

If the highest EU court validates their right to take 20% of global revenues, Apple will probably bail out of the EU.

US oil companies aren’t in a hurry to go back to Venezuela since they nationalized their assets.

Same with Russia confiscating assets of Western companies.

Companies, especially tech, barely gave a shit about Russia. Apple isn’t leaving the EU LOL. Especially when they’re fine with allowing China’s authoritarian regime.
 

Megalodon

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Eu doesn’t have the right to confiscate money arbitrarily.

If the highest EU court validates their right to take 20% of global revenues, Apple will probably bail out of the EU.
You are laughably incorrect on both counts and as we've already established the potential fine very closely mirrors the EU share of total Apple revenue. Pinning the fine to global turnover is done simply to prevent the use of accounting tricks to evade the penalties.

I think the main question is how Apple will deal with the requirements. Will they allow other app stores in just the EU or risk the absurd double standard emboldening other countries and do it globally? Will they allow sideloaded apps to run rampant or attempt to make the best of a bad situation by strengthening their sandbox with virtualization technology?

I think they're going to have to do quite a bit from the iOS perspective. Apple will be required to allow their first-party apps to be uninstalled, and it's not going to be hard to reverse engineer those apps to determine if they are using private APIs. Apple's either going to have to whip their own apps into shape and stop using private APIs, or open up those APIs to the world, neither of which will be a good outcome for Apple and in any case will eat up a huge amount of cycles for Apple's engineers. This will only be made worse if Apple delays their response while they attempt to fight this new law.
 

wco81

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Especially when they’re fine with allowing China’s authoritarian regime.
Moreover China is obviously going to implement similar regulation once the EU has demonstrated it.


CIte?

Also you haven't shown EU produces 20% of global revenues.


They will litigate it as much as they can.

Look if the city your summer home is in demands 20% of your income for whatever reason, you will be looking for another summer home.


Would be stupid to pay that kind of money and then keep operating there and giving them more chances to try to confiscate income in that range.
 

Megalodon

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No cite required, the high likelihood of China implementing similar policy is original analysis by me. Stop using "cite?" as a generic form of disagreement.

I simply consider it sufficiently obvious that it's impossible for a serious participant in this discussion to disagree with me successfully. China implementing a mercantalist policy to benefit their domestic economy to the maximum extent possible without retaliation has long been their policy. If the EU pulls this off, China will almost certainly follow.

Also you haven't shown EU produces 20% of global revenues.
I think somewhere earlier I noted this information was available in their financial reports. Looking at their 2021 10-K I see Europe accounts for 89307 of 365817 million of their total global income, so 24.4%, though not all countries in Europe are subject to the EU legislation so the actual amount would be a bit less, at least until the other countries copy the legislation.

Either way I think this is close enough for the purpose of our discussion.

Seems to me once Apple has implemented software features to comply with the legislation it will be extremely simple for other countries to implement copycat legislation to opt in.

Look if the city your summer home is in demands 20% of your income for whatever reason, you will be looking for another summer home.
And yet hardware is still the great majority of the total income, I don't think walking away from that is compatible with the fiduciary responsibility Apple has to shareholders.
 

wrylachlan

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Look if the city your summer home is in demands 20% of your income for whatever reason, you will be looking for another summer home.
Meh. I’d be willing to bet that if you broke all the ordinances in just about any city on a daily basis you could rack up fines equal to 20% of your income. If I threw parties every night and had to pay noise violations daily in my home town that would more or less wipe out my income.

Having regulations with stiff penalties is par for the course. The penalties are intentionally high not because they want you to pay them but because they want you to follow the regulation!

Apple isn’t going to pay 20% of their global income nor are they going to leave the EU. Shareholders would fucking crucify Cook for throwing a temper tantrum like that. No, they’ll do the obvious thing and draw it out in court as long as they feasibly can and then put on their big boy pants and implement the regulation.
 
Who is arguing against curation? No one is saying allow sideloading as the default. That is silly to be against. Sideloading being allowed doesn't change those who don't want it's device at all.
I think there is a completely legitimate concern that certain popular apps will attempt to funnel users to sideloading mechanisms and thereby expose users to many of the problems Apple sought to avoid with the review process such as privacy abuses, hot phone/dead battery type issues, and so on. This is the peril Apple created when they allowed their financial interest in collecting rent to become entangled with the user's interest in avoiding those problems. Seems to me the fact that these problems are indeed problems should not be controversial, the only disagreement is who is responsible. wco81 and others believe Apple should be allowed to do as they see fit with no restraint. My take is that sufficiently onerous terms were never going to be tolerated by policymakers in the long term, which means Apple made this inevitable.

The fact I'm in the midst of being proven correct does not appear to have persuaded people like wco81 that my analysis from the policy perspective is a good one, even though as noted, I am in fact correct. The discussion seems to skip right over that part and into a philosophical argument over infantile notions like whether laissez faire economic policy can avoid bad outcomes like privacy violating apps and the Earth becoming uninhabitable to humans.

That’s it exactly. Forcing Apple to open up the iPhone has real potential to make it worse for me as a user.

I'm not sure how. I mean, just because Google Wallet/pay would now work on iPhone doesn't mean you have to use it.
 

wrylachlan

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Who is arguing against curation? No one is saying allow sideloading as the default. That is silly to be against. Sideloading being allowed doesn't change those who don't want it's device at all.
I think there is a completely legitimate concern that certain popular apps will attempt to funnel users to sideloading mechanisms and thereby expose users to many of the problems Apple sought to avoid with the review process such as privacy abuses, hot phone/dead battery type issues, and so on. This is the peril Apple created when they allowed their financial interest in collecting rent to become entangled with the user's interest in avoiding those problems. Seems to me the fact that these problems are indeed problems should not be controversial, the only disagreement is who is responsible. wco81 and others believe Apple should be allowed to do as they see fit with no restraint. My take is that sufficiently onerous terms were never going to be tolerated by policymakers in the long term, which means Apple made this inevitable.

The fact I'm in the midst of being proven correct does not appear to have persuaded people like wco81 that my analysis from the policy perspective is a good one, even though as noted, I am in fact correct. The discussion seems to skip right over that part and into a philosophical argument over infantile notions like whether laissez faire economic policy can avoid bad outcomes like privacy violating apps and the Earth becoming uninhabitable to humans.

That’s it exactly. Forcing Apple to open up the iPhone has real potential to make it worse for me as a user.

I'm not sure how. I mean, just because Google Wallet/pay would now work on iPhone doesn't mean you have to use it.
It’s the bolded part.
 
Who is arguing against curation? No one is saying allow sideloading as the default. That is silly to be against. Sideloading being allowed doesn't change those who don't want it's device at all.
I think there is a completely legitimate concern that certain popular apps will attempt to funnel users to sideloading mechanisms and thereby expose users to many of the problems Apple sought to avoid with the review process such as privacy abuses, hot phone/dead battery type issues, and so on. This is the peril Apple created when they allowed their financial interest in collecting rent to become entangled with the user's interest in avoiding those problems. Seems to me the fact that these problems are indeed problems should not be controversial, the only disagreement is who is responsible. wco81 and others believe Apple should be allowed to do as they see fit with no restraint. My take is that sufficiently onerous terms were never going to be tolerated by policymakers in the long term, which means Apple made this inevitable.

The fact I'm in the midst of being proven correct does not appear to have persuaded people like wco81 that my analysis from the policy perspective is a good one, even though as noted, I am in fact correct. The discussion seems to skip right over that part and into a philosophical argument over infantile notions like whether laissez faire economic policy can avoid bad outcomes like privacy violating apps and the Earth becoming uninhabitable to humans.

That’s it exactly. Forcing Apple to open up the iPhone has real potential to make it worse for me as a user.

I'm not sure how. I mean, just because Google Wallet/pay would now work on iPhone doesn't mean you have to use it.
It’s the bolded part.

But can't you already side-load on iPhones?
 

wrylachlan

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You can sideload on iPhones but through an extremely challenging for normal users MDM process. The issue is that if the EU mandated a more user friendly sideloading system then someone like Facebook might say “get your Facebook app here” on the web to bypass Apples App Store regulation.

Personally I think the danger of individual apps trying to go it alone pulling their user bases to a sideloaded solution seems unlikely. We’ve seen how little of that actually happens on Android. The bigger danger IMO is a secondary App Store reaching critical mass. Something like an Amazon store for iOS could potentially hit critical mass.
 

Megalodon

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Personally I think the danger of individual apps trying to go it alone pulling their user bases to a sideloaded solution seems unlikely. We’ve seen how little of that actually happens on Android.
Google is facing antitrust scrutiny for the amount of friction they have for their sideload process. I don't think that will survive this law in its current form either.

The way sideloading currently works on Android is that it's not allowed by default and even when allowed, does not permit the installed app to itself install anything else. That makes self-updating or alternate app stores impractical. That friction is intentional and like Apple I think it's there for a combination of good and bad reasons, and like Apple, Google has allowed rent seeking to become entangled in the user's interests. Make it easier and I think it's going to become far more common.

There's drawbacks to that and will very likely result in BonziBuddy-type malware that installs unwanted components without user consent. This is one of the reasons I suggested beefing up sandboxing with virtualization technology. But like Apple, I think Google is going to be very late implementing actual considered engineering responses to this, and may indeed want the legislation to backfire and so will potentially simply allow the problem to fester.
 

wrylachlan

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Personally I think the danger of individual apps trying to go it alone pulling their user bases to a sideloaded solution seems unlikely. We’ve seen how little of that actually happens on Android.
Google is facing antitrust scrutiny for the amount of friction they have for their sideload process. I don't think that will survive this law in its current form either.

The way sideloading currently works on Android is that it's not allowed by default and even when allowed, does not permit the installed app to itself install anything else. That makes self-updating or alternate app stores impractical. That friction is intentional and like Apple I think it's there for a combination of good and bad reasons, and like Apple, Google has allowed rent seeking to become entangled in the user's interests. Make it easier and I think it's going to become far more common.

There's drawbacks to that and will very likely result in BonziBuddy-type malware that installs unwanted components without user consent. This is one of the reasons I suggested beefing up sandboxing with virtualization technology. But like Apple, I think Google is going to be very late implementing actual considered engineering responses to this, and may indeed want the legislation to backfire and so will potentially simply allow the problem to fester.
Right. I imagine an EU regulation will aim not just for “sideloading is technically possible” but “sideloading is easy for the average person - at least as easy as on PC/Mac.”

If Google thinks “let my platform go to stink until EU regulators come to their senses” I think they’ll have a long time to wait. The likelihood of the EU deregulating after a very public regulation like this seems vanishingly small. They might tinker around the edges after a couple years of living with unintended consequences, but hoping for a full pullback would be horrible strategy for Google. They would bleed customers left and right.

Virtualization is one strategy to limit the damage but I don’t know how that impacts battery - which is king for mobile devices. I suppose that there could be some sort of “if the sandbox uses more than X then kill it” but then you’d end up in a morass of litigation claiming that Apple is unfairly targeting sideloaded virtualized processes to kill and preferencing their App Store apps.
 

Echohead2

Ars Legatus Legionis
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You can sideload on iPhones but through an extremely challenging for normal users MDM process. The issue is that if the EU mandated a more user friendly sideloading system then someone like Facebook might say “get your Facebook app here” on the web to bypass Apples App Store regulation.

Personally I think the danger of individual apps trying to go it alone pulling their user bases to a sideloaded solution seems unlikely. We’ve seen how little of that actually happens on Android. The bigger danger IMO is a secondary App Store reaching critical mass. Something like an Amazon store for iOS could potentially hit critical mass.


Agreed...Android has shown that "easy" sideloading just isn't used that much.

Why would it be a danger if Amazon had a successful iOS store? Or a Google store?