GM says it misstated fuel economy, Opel denies emissions cheating allegations

In the US, GM customers will be compensated. In Germany, Opel is obstinate.

Read the whole story

 

[dorkbert]

... Opel cars in question turned off the emissions control system when the car hit certain conditions—like in high-altitude and when the driver pushed the car over 87 mph.

I don't believe any of the Opel vehicles were equipped with a flux capacitor. As such I don't see the benefit of disabling the emission control over 88 MPH.

 

[CommanderK]

dorkbert[/url]"mgooerf]

... Opel cars in question turned off the emissions control system when the car hit certain conditions—like in high-altitude and when the driver pushed the car over 87 mph.

I don't believe any of the Opel vehicles were equipped with a flux capacitor. As such I don't see the benefit of disabling the emission control over 88 MPH.

As far as I remember, German law limits some of the emission requirements to 130 km/h, or about 81 mph - the recommended German Autobahn speed. Add some safety buffer to it and you are at 87 mph.

Update: So it was 120 km/h, and 87 mph is about 140 km/h. There's now an article/comment about that on German site heise.de, which goes into some more detail (added Google translate for convenience):
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... t=&act=url

And Dorkbert: Sorry for disturbing your joke

 

[CommanderK]

Funny part about this topic today: Fiat was ordered to the German traffic minister for similar reasons and just didn't appear. Fiat excuse was typical italian: It has nothing to say, its vehicles fall under italian law and must be handled by the italian government. Good one! Maybe VW should have tried this in the US

Fiat engines were suspected to shut down emission hardware after 22 minutes - a test scenario takes 20 minutes.

 

[Kluj]

CommanderK[/url]":3ags73o6]Fiat engines were suspected to shut down emission hardware after 22 minutes - a test scenario takes 20 minutes.

Why would anyone want this? A minority might be aware of it and very possibly (dare I say probably?) not appreciate this, and for those who don't, they wonder why their car controls inconsistently without somehow piecing together that the operating parameters change after 22 minutes. -And in exchange, car manufacturers have to hide a scandal and possibly run afoul of laws with harsh punishments and media blowback.

 

[teknik]

When are the fuel economy numbers ever what you actually get?

My Prius is supposed to do better in the city than on the highway but I get 43 city 46 highway. My hybrid civic was closer to what Honda advertised and they got sued and lost. Before that I had a subaru that was supposed to get 28 but was more like 20, although the subaru was quick and I took advantage of it's quickness.

I've never owned a car that was close to the reported mpgs.

 

[tcowher]

And for the tinfoil anyone think this is in retaliation for the VW scandal or an attempt at it?
Notice the other thing? That at least as presented it looks like GM followed the law in Germany with respect to emissions and disabling or limiting the emissions controls under very specific conditions. Where VW only turned them on during very specific conditions.

And another thing. Notice that it seems most manufactures feel that emissions controls are deterimental to engine longevity in at least some conditions.

tc

 

[CommanderK]

Kluj[/url]":3eqb8j0w]

CommanderK[/url]":3eqb8j0w]Fiat engines were suspected to shut down emission hardware after 22 minutes - a test scenario takes 20 minutes.

Why would anyone want this? A minority might be aware of it and very possibly (dare I say probably?) not appreciate this, and for those who don't, they wonder why their car controls inconsistently without somehow piecing together that the operating parameters change after 22 minutes. -And in exchange, car manufacturers have to hide a scandal and possibly run afoul of laws with harsh punishments and media blowback.

It could be about the mileage and maybe also about component wear. A particle filter is made out of platinum and extremely expensive. The rest of the emission control in better diesels is also very complicated (exhaust gas recirculation, which may soot your engine intake section, electrically adjusted swirl flaps that make sure your intake air always has the right flow (!), which could also soot). I could imagine that all this wearing down too early and/ or requiring the driver to go to their service too often would be a bad thing for the producer (and also the driver). Just speculations...

 

[DoomHamster]

CommanderK[/url]":1vi66jwh]

dorkbert[/url]":1vi66jwh]

... Opel cars in question turned off the emissions control system when the car hit certain conditions—like in high-altitude and when the driver pushed the car over 87 mph.

I don't believe any of the Opel vehicles were equipped with a flux capacitor. As such I don't see the benefit of disabling the emission control over 88 MPH.

As far as I remember, German law limits some of the emission requirements to 130 km/h, or about 81 mph - the recommended German Autobahn speed. Add some safety buffer to it and you are at 87 mph.

I don't know whether to upvote you for providing a good explanation of the odd number or downvote you for spoiling the joke.

 

[Marakai]

Great, now I can't get Oprah out of my head...

"You lied about car emissions! And you lied about car emissions! Everybody lied about car emissions!"

 

[arcite]

Are there any car manufactures left who are honest? Ford?

 

[RobDickinson]

That engineer gets around!

 

[IrishMonkee]

CommanderK[/url]":37dit1ju]Funny part about this topic today: Fiat was ordered to the German traffic minister for similar reasons and just didn't appear. Fiat excuse was typical italian: It has nothing to say, its vehicles fall under italian law and must be handled by the italian government. Good one! Maybe VW should have tried this in the US

Fiat engines were suspected to shut down emission hardware after 22 minutes - a test scenario takes 20 minutes.

If VW would have tried that in the US they would have possibly found their assets and bank accounts frozen, import bans, sanctions, more lawsuits, investigations from other agencies, basically the US would put a world of hurt on them that is usually reserved for foreign government and officials.

 

[Statistical]

That engineer gets around!

"There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt."

 

[Statistical]

Are there any car manufactures left who are honest? Ford?

"There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt."

 

[Marakai]

Statistical[/url]":3py1aeh0]

Are there any car manufactures left who are honest? Ford?

"There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt."

That sounds like you're quoting Commander Vimes.

 

[IrishMonkee]

arcite[/url]":eczu9toy]Are there any car manufactures left who are honest? Ford?

Ford doesn't make the cut unless you don't count history.

 

[심돌산]

CommanderK[/url]":1fdxifsx]

dorkbert[/url]":1fdxifsx]

... Opel cars in question turned off the emissions control system when the car hit certain conditions—like in high-altitude and when the driver pushed the car over 87 mph.

I don't believe any of the Opel vehicles were equipped with a flux capacitor. As such I don't see the benefit of disabling the emission control over 88 MPH.

As far as I remember, German law limits some of the emission requirements to 130 km/h, or about 81 mph - the recommended German Autobahn speed.

Similarly, it is recommended that you drink only 1/2 of a can of soda and that you eat no more than "about 7" potato chips in a single serving.

 

[심돌산]

RobDickinson[/url]":zd2naekm]That engineer gets around!

That's why they call him The Rogue Engineer.

 

[Chuckstar]

CommanderK[/url]":1s3ddw8a]Funny part about this topic today: Fiat was ordered to the German traffic minister for similar reasons and just didn't appear. Fiat excuse was typical italian: It has nothing to say, its vehicles fall under italian law and must be handled by the italian government. Good one! Maybe VW should have tried this in the US

Fiat engines were suspected to shut down emission hardware after 22 minutes - a test scenario takes 20 minutes.

"Good one!"

Good one what? This is actually how EU emissions controls law works.

 

[Chuckstar]

IrishMonkee[/url]":2vymiduf]

CommanderK[/url]":2vymiduf]Funny part about this topic today: Fiat was ordered to the German traffic minister for similar reasons and just didn't appear. Fiat excuse was typical italian: It has nothing to say, its vehicles fall under italian law and must be handled by the italian government. Good one! Maybe VW should have tried this in the US

Fiat engines were suspected to shut down emission hardware after 22 minutes - a test scenario takes 20 minutes.

If VW would have tried that in the US they would have possibly found their assets and bank accounts frozen, import bans, sanctions, more lawsuits, investigations from other agencies, basically the US would put a world of hurt on them that is usually reserved for foreign government and officials.

What are we talking about this as though Fiat's "trying something". You know Europe has different laws than the U.S., right?

 

[Putrid Polecat]

RobDickinson[/url]":21i2lqt7]That engineer gets around!

Guy's a rock star.

 

[Fatesrider]

Kluj[/url]":11kkkza2]

CommanderK[/url]":11kkkza2]Fiat engines were suspected to shut down emission hardware after 22 minutes - a test scenario takes 20 minutes.

Why would anyone want this? A minority might be aware of it and very possibly (dare I say probably?) not appreciate this, and for those who don't, they wonder why their car controls inconsistently without somehow piecing together that the operating parameters change after 22 minutes. -And in exchange, car manufacturers have to hide a scandal and possibly run afoul of laws with harsh punishments and media blowback.

I think you misunderstood.

The reason this would be enabled is to pass emissions tests without the required sacrifice of performance. Cars are typically started up before an emissions test, which would then have the emissions hardware enabled, allowing it to pass the test.

But once the test was over, the emissions hardware is turned off, the exhaust would NOT pass EPA standards anymore, and the performance of the vehicle would improve. They make more money that way, playing the (usually correct) game that the fine will be a lot less than what it would cost them in profits for lackluster sales due to bad performance.

Ford did the same thing with the Pinto, not fixing the fuel inlet problem because they calculated that the costs of fixing the problem would be higher than the costs of wrongful death suits and litigation. It was the wrong call to make because they vastly overestimated the cost of the fix, and grossly underestimated the number of people who were killed by exploding Pintos. But every business with products that could kill someone seems to be doing it still.

If they're still willing to put profit ahead of lives, why they'd scruple by only adding more pollution to the air for the sake of profit seems pretty petty by comparison.

TL;DR: They did it in order to make a bigger profit on a car with much better performance than they'd be able to get with the hardware enabled all the time, and thought they'd get away with it by making more in profits than they'd get hit with in fines.

 

[brad0]

CommanderK[/url]":13qj5g0g]Funny part about this topic today: Fiat was ordered to the German traffic minister for similar reasons and just didn't appear. Fiat excuse was typical italian: It has nothing to say, its vehicles fall under italian law and must be handled by the italian government. Good one! Maybe VW should have tried this in the US

Now if he had said he was coming to see the minister and his Fiat broke down... that would have been entirely plausible!

Fiat engines were suspected to shut down emission hardware after 22 minutes - a test scenario takes 20 minutes.

Probably the Fiat engineers never though the engine would run for more than 20 minutes...

 

[issor]

So if Opel is within the legal guidelines, why are German magazines and reporters throwing a fit about it? Are they trying to redirect the attention VW has been getting?

 

[DeschutesCore]

teknik[/url]":2f8vzvk6]When are the fuel economy numbers ever what you actually get?

My Prius is supposed to do better in the city than on the highway but I get 43 city 46 highway. My hybrid civic was closer to what Honda advertised and they got sued and lost. Before that I had a subaru that was supposed to get 28 but was more like 20, although the subaru was quick and I took advantage of it's quickness.

I've never owned a car that was close to the reported mpgs.

Every car I have ever owned has always exceed its rated mileage.

 

[Gibborim]

Marakai[/url]":13j71p3x]Great, now I can't get Oprah out of my head...

"You lied about car emissions! And you lied about car emissions! Everybody lied about car emissions!"

My favorite Oprah quote is “We do not forgive, we do not forget; our group has over 9000 penises and they are all raping children.”

 

[isparavanje]

Gibborim[/url]":3fcv5ywg]

Marakai[/url]":3fcv5ywg]Great, now I can't get Oprah out of my head...

"You lied about car emissions! And you lied about car emissions! Everybody lied about car emissions!"

My favorite Oprah quote is “We do not forgive, we do not forget; our group has over 9000 penises and they are all raping children.”

Well my favorite Einstein quote is "Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid".

 

[Chuckstar]

issor[/url]":2gytjotf]So if Opel is within the legal guidelines, why are German magazines and reporters throwing a fit about it? Are they trying to redirect the attention VW has been getting?

The media needs a rationale for mud-slinging?

Or maybe the media simply misunderstands the regulations (wouldn't be the first time).

Or maybe the concept that even if Opel is within the regulations, maybe that means the regulations aren't so good.

 

[hangfirew8]

However, Opel doesn't currently sell cars in the US

Well, thank goodness for small favors.

I had a Manta once. Handled great, great fuel economy. Bought it with 90K miles, drove it to the junkyard at 100K miles, bad cylinder, no feasible way to get to the engine to fix it. The service manual suggested dropping it out the bottom might work, but first you had to build a special wood frame to hold the rack & pinion to prevent damaging it, and they didn't recommend it... meaning there was no recommended way to service it.

In other words, it was a disposable car, not designed for repair, only maintenance.

 

[심돌산]

isparavanje[/url]":1ba5ywdj]

Gibborim[/url]":1ba5ywdj]

Marakai[/url]":1ba5ywdj]Great, now I can't get Oprah out of my head...

"You lied about car emissions! And you lied about car emissions! Everybody lied about car emissions!"

My favorite Oprah quote is “We do not forgive, we do not forget; our group has over 9000 penises and they are all raping children.”

Well my favorite Einstein quote is "Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid".

I suspect Einstein's interactions with other human beings were fairly limited in scope. I went to good schools and a good university. Afterward I went straight into the computer field and as a very young adult I would have agreed that pretty much everybody has their own type of genius.

Later life took me through some experiences, through which I got to experience a truly wide variety of human beings. I met some very interesting people, including some very smart people working in menial labor jobs. But I also met some profoundly stupid people, who really, truly, couldn't find their way out of a paper bag.

That doesn't mean I didn't like them, but it brought home the fact that for every 160 IQ, there's a 40 out there somewhere.

 

[mrnomnoms]

With these issues becoming more prevalent (along with someone else noting that these mileage stats are rather meaningless given that you have to drive almost perfectly all the time to get even close to the figure) maybe the solution isn't legislation but a tax on petrol to make petrol expensive enough that it would compel drivers in the United States to buy more efficient cars. For those who are from America and never left the country, you need to understand one thing: America has some of the cheapest unsubsidised petrol in the world - when you make things cheap then don't be surprised when people guzzle it down given there is no incentive to be efficient. No different to large cups of soft drink - if you subsidise corn resulting in corn syrup being cheaper than real sugar then don't be surprised that once again America has the cheapest soft drinks compared to most other countries. You make something cheap then don't be surprised when people use it and abuse it.

 

[DaVuVuZeLa]

심돌산[/url]":11ovm7se]

RobDickinson[/url]":11ovm7se]That engineer gets around!

That's why they call him The Rogue Engineer.

cue Dramatic Music

 

[DaVuVuZeLa]

mrnomnoms[/url]":1p6gh1qb]With these issues becoming more prevalent (along with someone else noting that these mileage stats are rather meaningless given that you have to drive almost perfectly all the time to get even close to the figure) maybe the solution isn't legislation but a tax on petrol to make petrol expensive enough that it would compel drivers in the United States to buy more efficient cars. For those who are from America and never left the country, you need to understand one thing: America has some of the cheapest unsubsidised petrol in the world - when you make things cheap then don't be surprised when people guzzle it down given there is no incentive to be efficient. No different to large cups of soft drink - if you subsidise corn resulting in corn syrup being cheaper than real sugar then don't be surprised that once again America has the cheapest soft drinks compared to most other countries. You make something cheap then don't be surprised when people use it and abuse it.

So the solution is to punish the consumer because the manufacturer can't make a car that legally meets regulations?

 

[mrnomnoms]

DaVuVuZeLa[/url]":1tutppu9]

mrnomnoms[/url]":1tutppu9]With these issues becoming more prevalent (along with someone else noting that these mileage stats are rather meaningless given that you have to drive almost perfectly all the time to get even close to the figure) maybe the solution isn't legislation but a tax on petrol to make petrol expensive enough that it would compel drivers in the United States to buy more efficient cars. For those who are from America and never left the country, you need to understand one thing: America has some of the cheapest unsubsidised petrol in the world - when you make things cheap then don't be surprised when people guzzle it down given there is no incentive to be efficient. No different to large cups of soft drink - if you subsidise corn resulting in corn syrup being cheaper than real sugar then don't be surprised that once again America has the cheapest soft drinks compared to most other countries. You make something cheap then don't be surprised when people use it and abuse it.

So the solution is to punish the consumer because the manufacturer can't make a car that legally meets regulations?

No, you use tax as an incentive for customers to demand more fuel efficient cars and then the car companies will meet that demand just as car companies produce fuel efficient cars for countries which have higher prices for petrol. It might also serve as a good incentive to avoid having massive sprawling cities that are like a cancer on the landscape - holy urban spreading shit balls, just look at Los Angeles as the model of 'how not to built a city' as one example of that.

 

[Radcliff]

Compensated with a gift card:

Translation ---

Screw you, customer.



EDIT: OK, so these are all SUVs. I don't like anything about this lifestyle (SUV driver), at all. SUV drivers can go to hell, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Fristie Blade]

Putrid Polecat[/url]":14xpn792]

RobDickinson[/url]":14xpn792]That engineer gets around!

Guy's a rock star.

Can the real engineer please stand up, please stand up ...

followed by

- I'm spartacus the engineer!
- No, I am the engineer!
- No, I am the engineer!
- ...

 

[norton_I]

teknik[/url]":3goqmoxo]When are the fuel economy numbers ever what you actually get?

My Prius is supposed to do better in the city than on the highway but I get 43 city 46 highway. My hybrid civic was closer to what Honda advertised and they got sued and lost. Before that I had a subaru that was supposed to get 28 but was more like 20, although the subaru was quick and I took advantage of it's quickness.

I've never owned a car that was close to the reported mpgs.

(Emphasis mine)

It has more to do with the driver than the car. I know people who always get better than the sticker, and people who always get less.

 

[MalEbenSo]

CommanderK[/url]":3fnfrf3e]
As far as I remember, German law limits some of the emission requirements to 130 km/h, or about 81 mph - the recommended German Autobahn speed. Add some safety buffer to it and you are at 87 mph.

German / European law does not limit emission requirements to 130 km/h.

Emission regulations require passing a test under specific conditions. In that it is similar to the US, although I find the US tests more realistic than the European ones.

The legal "extras" make a big difference. Whereas the US explicitly forbid "defeat devices", the European law not only has no such provision, but actually allows disabling emission control systems if needed to protect the car.

This gives car manufacturers more freedom to let their cars behave differently in tests and real life. Bummer!

Of course, when legally challenged, car manufacturers must proof that disabling emission control Systems was necessary to protect the car.

This will be difficult in the case of GM / Opel:

The article makes it sound like "certain conditions" would be a rare event. They are not.

The Emissions control system is reduced or disabled
- at temperatures higher than 30°C (86 F)
- at temperatures lower than 20°C (68 F)
- at revs higher than 1200 rpm (reduced)
- at revs higher than 2400 rpm (disabled)

It is not uncommon to drive faster than 130 km/h on German autobahns.
(The existence of sections with speed limits is no excuse.)

It affects not just the Zafira, GM minivan in most of Europe (under the Opel brand, likely affects Vauxhall, too). But the Astra is apparently affected, too.

http://www1.wdr.de/daserste/monitor/ext ... l-132.html

 

[MalEbenSo]

issor[/url]":29fw4axj]So if Opel is within the legal guidelines, why are German magazines and reporters throwing a fit about it? Are they trying to redirect the attention VW has been getting?

At this point we don't know if GM / Opel cars are within the law.

GM / Opel says they are. (Surprise, surprise.)

Spiegel and Monitor have good reason to say they might not be.

The whole situation about car emissions and fuel economy has been sweltering for years.
It was an open secret that not all is well in the state of Denmark ... for practically all manufacturers, engine types, for emissions and fuel economy.
From my point of view it is overdue, that cars are examined closer irrespective of car manufacturer.

VW is getting a lot of flak (and rightly so). That doesn't make others innocent. Renault, PSA, Mitsubishi, Fiat, GM, Suzuki ... are under scrutiny or confessing "voluntarily".

I hope that the outcome will be just with harsh consequences where needed and slaps on the wrist in smaller cases.

And I hope that the outcome will be a revision of regulations that
- is measurable,
- is comprehensive (fuel economy, all relevant emission types like CO2, NOx, soot particles)
- avoids loopholes (where implementations might be legal although they undermine the intent of the law),
- is realistic (requirements can be technically met within reasonable economic Limits)