Framework 16 reviews are up!

[Drizzt321]

So Framework 16 is about to start mass production shipping. As such, a number of reviews are dropping today. See this forum thread for most of them.

However, something VERY important to know is that all of the reviewer samples at this time are production validation systems. So some still have hardware issues that were found and fixed for mass production.

From their blog post:

This is the largest batch of review units we’ve ever shipped, and we expect more reviews to trickle in over the next week. For context on our press units, many companies ramp into production, manufacture a large quantity to fill retail channels, and cherry pick some golden units from that as review samples. For us, because we’re entirely direct to consumer, our ramp is extremely fast, and units go to customers’ hands immediately. That means to get press units out weeks ahead of time to provide a sufficiently long review period, we send out production-intent qualification units. The “intent” part of that is that these are usually functionally identical to what ships to consumers.

So if you haven't been following along, they have had several updates over the last few months on validation issues discovered, fixes (both hardware and software and firmware) that they've had to do. Unprecedented levels of transparency, which has been awesome.

 

[szech]

Looking forward to the Ars take on this.
Seems like you can come away with very different takes depending on your prior expectations.

My 2 pence:
If you want a bang for buck gaming laptop - FW16 isn't it.

If you want a repairable 16", Linux capable mac/dell replacement, and you're happy to deal with some teething problems this looks like a good fit. (caveat emptor, etc etc)

If you want a thinkpad replacement, buy a thinkpad.

 

[Nevarre]

I mean, there's really no such thing as a bang-for-buck gaming laptop and a "good" gaming laptop is a difficult target to hit at any price. The Framework isn't a budget system--they embody too few compromises to hit aggressive price points. That low-compromise/ease of upgrade/long-term use is really what Framework buyers are looking for-- as long as the price isn't unreasonable. It's probably "good enough" for mobile gaming options of some kind and in the price point and target demographic where Framework exists, most buyers who don't need to be mobile all the time probably have a custom gaming rig at home.

I understand that there are Thinkpad fans, but they're not particularly more repairable than many competitors, They don't have the level of customization that Framework is offering, and Framework doesn't carry the baggage of being a company based in China. They're not bad but they aren't exactly a direct competitor. They do promise that ownership experience with a hopefully lower level of stress/teething pains/tinkering required--hopefully.

 

[Drizzt321]

Nearly all of the issues reviewers highlight are directly related to issues that were found during validation and fixed. Except for the midplate fix from LTT. They posted a full list https://community.frame.work/t/reviews-are-dropping/43959/44

And I wish reviewers had mentioned "we got a pre-production validation version, there will be issues and here is the list of found/fixed for the final production version".

And speaking of which, yeah, where's the Ars review?

And speaking of Thinkpads... there's a user keyboard mod effort to put a Thinkpad keyboard + trackpoint onto a Framework

 

[stevenkan]

Nearly all of the issues reviewers highlight are directly related to issues that were found during validation and fixed.

Well, I'll believe "fixed" when there's actually some miles on these. Building a reliable laptop is actually quite difficult or expensive.

 

[stevenkan]

If you want a repairable 16", Linux capable mac/dell replacement, and you're happy to deal with some teething problems this looks like a good fit. (caveat emptor, etc etc)

Ooooh. Are these hackintoshable? That would be very interesting.

 

[Drizzt321]

Well, I'll believe "fixed" when there's actually some miles on these. Building a reliable laptop is actually quite difficult or expensive.

So all through the last few months, Framework has been posting full information on issues found during validation, what they did to fix them, what impact that had on timeline, etc. It's been extremely refreshing to see.

And the CEO posted here the full list of late production validation issues that cropped up, that are fixed for production versions (although yes, we'll see if batch 1 or 2 have successfully fixed them all). The one thing is that Linux Tech Tips had complaints about keyboard flex, and he said they're looking into it closely to see if it's a one-off sample issue, or something that could be a bigger issue. And if it does need a fix, everybody who needs the fix will be sent for free whatever hardware is needed to replace/fix it.

Ooooh. Are these hackintoshable? That would be very interesting.

Not a clue. They're Ryzen, so dunno. Never tried really doing the hackintosh stuff. Might be better to look at the FW 13 Intel models, since I'm pretty sure that's what hackintoshs would use, Intel systems. Obviously can't really do that for the Apple silicon.

 

[szech]

I understand that there are Thinkpad fans...

There seems to be a horde of them in every forum wishing they could trackpoint nipple all the things.

 

[Drizzt321]

There seems to be a horde of them in every forum wishing they could trackpoint nipple all the things.

And here I am using Ultimate Hacking Keyboard with the trackpoint module

 

[Drizzt321]

And another update https://community.frame.work/t/sixth-update-on-framework-laptop-16-shipment-timing/44193

• They've started ramping up mass production!
• Chinese New Years Feb 8-14 shut down is coming up, so sounds like at best some, hopefully most or all, of Batch 1 will be able to get shipped out.
• Future update emails likely won't happen at a 2-week cadence, but they will continue to update us on production pacing
• All of the pre-production issues fixed not necessarily in the reviewer samples, plus a few found issues that they've fixed in firmware & drivers with AMD

 

[Nevarre]

"5. Cold GPU performance - For GPU benchmarks, on a cold first run the scores may have been lower than subsequent warm runs. We resolved this through a BIOS update that we provided to reviewers partway through the review cycle. Some reviewers may have benchmarked ahead of that time. We know that LTT was on the newer BIOS in their benchmarking."

How much stock does Linus own again? This isn't quite a conflict of interest, but it would be nice to note all the reviewers that have accounted for the fix and encourage the rest to re-benchmark.

 

[Drizzt321]

"5. Cold GPU performance - For GPU benchmarks, on a cold first run the scores may have been lower than subsequent warm runs. We resolved this through a BIOS update that we provided to reviewers partway through the review cycle. Some reviewers may have benchmarked ahead of that time. We know that LTT was on the newer BIOS in their benchmarking."

How much stock does Linus own again? This isn't quite a conflict of interest, but it would be nice to note all the reviewers that have accounted for the fix and encourage the rest to re-benchmark.

If you look, LTT review was done by a couple of the others, not Linus himself. It's him personally that owns some preferred shares.

That said, so to speak, it's still potentially a conflict of interest nonetheless. Or at least possible perception of it.

That said...not sure what you mean, all reviewers got the updated BIOS, but some already had run their benchmarks and didn't re-run it before they provided the BIOS fix.

 

[Ionitor]

I expect to be getting my batch 1 order confirmation email today. I'll definitely be completing the order, as none of the issues mentioned in reviews are showstoppers for me.

I am wondering where the Ars review is, though!

 

[Drizzt321]

I expect to be getting my batch 1 order confirmation email today. I'll definitely be completing the order, as none of the issues mentioned in reviews are showstoppers for me.

I am wondering where the Ars review is, though!

Oh nice! Would definitely appreciate hearing your actual impressions and experience with build and such when you first get it.

 

[Ionitor]

Oh nice! Would definitely appreciate hearing your actual impressions and experience with build and such when you first get it.

Will do. The confirmation email said that the RGB keyboard I ordered should be available in "early February", so it's iffy as to whether it will get shipped before the Chinese New Year.

 

[Drizzt321]

Yeah, sounds like the RGB keyboard & macro pad are running a bit behind schedule. So unfortunate for those folks. For me, meh. I'm so far back (Batch 12) that it won't affect me in the slightest, they'll have the supply chain running smoothly by then.

 

[Ionitor]

For those that don't visit it often, the front page review is up. Again, nothing surprising that will change my mind at this point.

 

[Drizzt321]

And laptops are going out to people!

Some lucky (unlucky?) schlub got his already
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1ah8lf4/got_my_framework_16/


Although appears to have some boot/RAM training issues? Dunno.

EDIT: And appears it was reseating some connectors, maybe a bad stick of RAM as well.

 

[continuum]

Although appears to have some boot/RAM training issues? Dunno.

EDIT: And appears it was reseating some connectors, maybe a bad stick of RAM as well.

Not a good out of box experience then.

 

[Drizzt321]

Not a good out of box experience then.

Well, the guy got the DIY edition. Aka, put it all together, room for him to screw up the connections.

When it's my turn, I should not rush through it wanting to eagerly get it started up. Take my time, push the connectors firmly, etc.

 

[continuum]

ohhhhhh derp. Was not obvious from the link preview that it was the DIY version.

 

[R4360]

There seems to be a horde of them in every forum wishing they could trackpoint nipple all the things.

It is the superior pointing device, after all. If somebody does a trackpoint keyboard for Framework, I'd be interested.

 

[Drizzt321]

It is the superior pointing device, after all. If somebody does a trackpoint keyboard for Framework, I'd be interested.

Well, there's an effort to take a ThinkPad keyboard and use it on the Framework.

 

[R4360]

Well, there's an effort to take a ThinkPad keyboard and use it on the Framework.

Oh good, I'll be interested to see how that shakes out.

 

[Drizzt321]

Oh good, I'll be interested to see how that shakes out.

Here's the forum thread https://community.frame.work/t/thinkpad-keyboard-mod-super-early-stages/38484

Still a work in progress, but he's on v2 of the adapter board.

 

[singebob]

I feel like while it's a worthy effort in every sense of the word, I just want what we had as pretty much the norm before - replaceable RAM, storage and potentially radios on a mainstream machine I under no circumstances will keep for more than 5 years on the outside anyway, since form factors and what you can do within said given form factors changes over a period.

The only people actually adhering to the Framework modus operandi in 5 years of any model release will be purely hobbyists, and they probably won't be buying the greatest and latest spares since it will not be worth it for an obsoleted chassis. This just creates basically the same amount of e-waste in the end.

 

[Drizzt321]

@singebob the goal is the chassis (and likely screen) will still be just fine in 5 years, or what not. Probably keyboard and trackpad as well. You just occasionally upgrade the mainboard as needed for newer USB/CPU/RAM types, and otherwise mostly don't actually need to change anything.

 

[singebob]

That's the point of what I said - there will be newer relevant form factors and new types of parts that also likely would only be relevant in a different form factor after that time.

And even as far as direct replacement parts go, will people pay premium prices to stick that in a maybe '" " fine " " but still worn chassis?

I feel like most present-day users of Framework laptops will just tinker with the modularity, then buy something else 5 years later since there will always be the new shiny thing, then for it to turn into a 'project' laptop that never has anything done with it - until passed along to someone else, the cycle repeats for maybe a couple of years until it ends up in landfill because someone who has a third-plus-hand piece of gear is probably not into going through the hoops to dispose of it responsibly.

As I said, about the same as a regular laptop.

 

[Drizzt321]

I dunno, 16" laptop form factor...is kinda more or less a fixed form factor. If you want a 15" or 17" or convertable or something, those are fundamentally different form factor. Not sure why the chassis would go obsolete then?