For the AVERAGE user, is Mac or PC less troublesome?

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otherworld

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  • #1
    I've read a lot of the Mac vs Pc posts in this forum and it seems obvious that a lot of people who post here are power users who have taken the time to learn all the finer details of Win95/98 and can therefore tweak and maintain their systems to such a degree that crashes and bugs are kept to a minimum, making Win95/98 for all intents and purposes, a stable OS.<P>But does the average PC owner do this? I think we all know they don't. Most of my friends use PCs, one is a dealer and I continually hear stories about how they have system crashes, hardware/driver incompatabilities, software conflicts etc. None of these 'average users' seem to have a clue how to fix up their systems or get the most out of them. My Pc dealer friend often has to spend hours diagnosing the source of these problems.<P>Whether or not Win95/98 (I use Win95/98 as an example because the average user does not use NT) is a difficult OS to learn or the average user could not be bothered learning how to maintain it, I don't know, but it seems to me that the average PC user has a lot more problems with their systems than the average Mac user.<P>It would be interesting (impossible to do of course) to tally up the sum total of time lost by average users caused by computer problems for both MACOS and Windows, divide the respective totals by the number of users of each platform, and see which OS really is more stable for the average user.<P>(I see 'average' as including the home user, small business owner and office worker - ie, the sorts of people who's livliehood (or special personal interest) does not depend upon them learning an OS back to front.)<P>I believe the Mac OS would be a clear winner over Win98 and my belief is based entirely on my observations and experience.<P>What do you think?<BR>
     
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    JB

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  • #2
    <BR> Power users of any platform have few problems. Average users can have many<BR>most of their own making, some due to the OS and it's inherant nature.<BR>Out of the box how secure is Linux? Will a brand new Mac boot if there <BR>are problems with extensions? Will a new PC users just delete directories<BR>so as to "unistall" an application?<BR>On the PC side one of the biggest problems (which played a role in Windows<BR>bad reputation) was that all the cheap PC makers had newbies as their customers.<BR>These folks by definition know little about a computer. Not only did they<BR>do ignorant things with their computers (see above deleting directories)<BR>but their machines were built with notoriously cheap (i.e., crappy) parts.<BR>They didn't blame themselves, they blamed the vendor and Microsoft.<BR>On a personal note, my father has had a comp for longer than I have. He<BR>just upgraded back in September from Win 3.1 to Win98se. Six years later<BR>and he hardly knows anything. I built his Win98 box so I get to be his<BR>tech support, lucky me. Everytime he calls me with a problem I'm amazed<BR>by what he's done.
     
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    Count Raven

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  • #4
    The average user does not do enough of their homework, and that's why they have the problems they do, regardless of OS. They don't take the time to read combatibility specs, FAQs, updated drivers and such - all those nagging things you have to keep on top of to keep running smoothly. We're a long way from the "appliance" theory, because computers just don't run and do what you want out of the box. They're a high maintance tool\toy, needing lots of TLC.<P>I have no clue why a person would choose Win98 over NT because NT is so much more solid, and the whole interface is nearly the same. Things like Devices and Services are complicated, but for the most part you shouldn't have to worry. The Task Manager is king - where the three fingered salute is not the end of the show, just a minor setback. Granted, those DirectX and USB issues really tick me off. I don't understand why the "pro" OS gets the short end of the stick.<P>Macs are more simple and streamlined. There "appears" to be less details to worry about, but they have headaches all their own. <P>I would assume most computer users already have a platform preference. I myself would recommend Amiga to the majority of users. There probably are more troubles on the PC side and since the Mac is more or less a proprietary system there's gonna be less problems. But you must learn to love rebooting. Save early, save ofte<B>***sorry, a system error has occured.***</B>
     
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    dent

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  • #5
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Will a new PC users just delete directories so as to "unistall" an application?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><I>DISCLAIMER: This is an HI rant, not a Mac vs PC rant</I><P>I'm an HI bigot, I admit it, but I fail to understand why the user is "wrong" for this type of behavior. It's the UI that is broken by giving the user the false impression that the folder actually contains the application when in fact there is "secret magic" in the [invisible and/or inpenetrable] registry that also must be updated. This is the same kind of attitude that leads to warning dialogs like "You're about to delete a .EXE file! Bad user! I have no idea if this will break anything or not (even though I should have all the information to be able to tell), but it *might* so I will let you, the naughty user try to guess if you *really* want to do this. Do you feel lucky? [OK] [Cancel]"<P>I'm not claiming that the Mac is better at this (when an app installer spews crap all over your system folder, how can you really be sure you've removed all of it later?), I'm just ranting about the generally abysmal UI design (in HI terms) that leads to scenarios like the one described above.<P>And now back to your regularly scheduled Battlefront flame fest...
     
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    Paul Hill

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  • #6
    I think it's a perception thing. I think because the Mac's traditional markets are "creative" types who tend to bond with inanimate objects (and snort lots and lots of cocaine), they forgive it a lot more than the beer-swillin' engineer types who use PCs as a "tool for the job".<P>Quick toy count - how many cuddly toys near your computer, PC? Mac people?<BR>
     
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    WyldKard

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  • #7
    The _average_ PC user doesn't have most of the problems associated with Win9x. It's the group of people that fall in-between the average user and the tweaker, such as the casual gamers, the random college student, etc. In business environments, Windows tends to have few problems. From my experience in the IT field, users of Windows PC's compared to Mac's had fewer issues when doing normal, routine things (browsing the web, word processing, etc) after a brief tutorial on how things worked. Mac's tend to have a learning curve a bit less steep than Windows machines, however.
     
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    a blindmouse

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  • #8
    Average users of either platform seem to be okay **AS LONG AS THEY CHANGE NOTHING**. The moment they try to install hardware (or better yet, remove software) there are problems... Here's where I see a Mac advantage: hardware installs are far more painless. An unexperienced friend of mine bought a G4 and had to add a SCSI card.... installed in two minutes flat, without any drivers of any kind. Mac booted right up and mounted his Jaz drive on the desktop.<P>But the Mac has problems too... like when novices try to network Macs together. Apple realy should cosolidate TCP/IP & AppleTalk & FileSharing & all of that stuff... and throw in OS 9's keychain/multiple users (cause they can confuse too)<P>The flip side - novices tend to *not even attempt* networking PCs. That's probably best.<P>And I have only one cuddly toy by my mac... View image: /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif it's a bleeding stuffed Kenny... <P><BR>edit: i cant spell<P>[This message has been edited by a blindmouse (edited January 25, 2000).]
     
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    stephenb

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  • #9
    A good rule of thumb is to buy from a reputable dealer. Macs crash, PCs crash. But I wouldn't buy a PC from "Joe's RibShack/Computer MegaMall" (although I hear the food is good) <P>It's all about what the machine is used for and whose going to use it. <P>BTW, in a direct contradiction to the Market share know-it-alls out there. About 1 in every 3 new computers bought, is used for 3-5 days than sits in a corner collecting dust. (Source: personal experience) It can get even worse in the corporate world. I did some consulting for a company that ordered 150 brand-new Dells (Pentium 90s) They sat in unwrapped boxes in a storage room for 18 months when they were pulled out and donated to a local school. The MIS department then ordered 200 PIIIs. And didn't get around to installing those for another 2 months after they arrived. <P>Also, be realistic. A computer doesn't make one a Graphic Designer or a Programmer. Get something that suits one's needs. <P>Hell, right now I NEED a SGI Octane. Too bad my checkbook disagrees.
     
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    Deleted member 5103

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  • #11
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR><I>Originally posted by a blindmouse:</I><BR>Here's where I see a Mac advantage: hardware installs are far more painless. An unexperienced friend of mine bought a G4 and had to add a SCSI card.... installed in two minutes flat, without any drivers of any kind. Mac booted right up and mounted his Jaz drive on the desktop.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This appears to be the case, simply because your hardware options are far more limited with the Mac - first off, there just aren't as many choices. And correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the newest Macs (G3/G4/iMac) have very limited legacy support? That greatly decreases the element of chance when it comes to PnP. Whereas if I wanted to install an 8-bit ISA CGA card on my P3/550, I could.<P>Honestly though when it comes to PnP-designed devices, Win98/2000 is just as easy. I recently did an install of Win2K on one of my boxes which has one of the weirdest hardware configurations I have ever seen (two sound cards, several SCSI & IDE devices, multiple network connections (LAN/cable/28.8 modem), etc), and it properly recognized and configured everything. And at least two of the pieces of hardware were pre-PnP.<P>[This message has been edited by Laner (edited January 25, 2000).]
     
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    klinzhai

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  • #15
    Here's an obtuse idea here... I'm gonna try to answer your question as well as I can.<P>The true question is one of what the user puts importance: ease of use or availability of software. Price or stability. Hardware support or ease of installation(with little hardware support). I'm trying to be very even-handed here.<BR>With the available options, many people would choose a Mac (if only those options were given, not the full story behind them).<BR>The first option: Macs would win simply because the philosophy of "well, how much software do I really need" is very common to a new user. The problem with that could be that you only really need one application (or ten for that matter), which you can't get on a Mac. On the same token, PC software makers are programmers and until you learn to think like a programmer (many never do), a lot of that wonderful software is useless.<BR>From there, you go to the next option: Price or stability. I will freely admit that Macs GENERALLY (please, note the GENERALLY) crash a lot less than PCs do. Macs also get used a LOT less in the home (which could explain this, but there are too many other factors). PCs, while they GENERALLY (please, note the GENERALLY again) crash more (some systems never crash, PC or Mac... of course I never get any of those ones), they cost a LOT less for the performance level (I don't care about 4 apps that were run by either manufacturer... give me the whetstone and dhrystone ratings on the CPU then we'll talk), about 30-50% less.<BR>With the first two covered, we continue to the last: Hardware support or ease of installation (with little support). PCs have a much larger hardware compatability list than Macs do. While this may not seem so important, you also have to consider that if demand outstrips supply, then price goes up. As with ease of use, the Macs have very stringent qualifications if you want to make a component that will go in a Mac which generally allows all of the add-ons to work amazingly well and without hitch commonly. Once again, you may end up with a situation where the one component that you really want you can't get on a Mac. The PCs have the full brunt of a huge competetive market running around trying to make $0.12 off of you, so the margins are lower, prices are better, but there are no qualifications to manufacture a PC component, except that it must be a PCI, ISA, USB, SCSI, IDE, Paralell, or Serial device, which isn't really a qualification. As a result, you have a lot of hardware that is a *BITCH* to get working because to get $0.14 out of you, they cut corners on the driver development or something similar. But, to get you to come back, they spent the other $0.02 on tech support so you could sit on your phone for 35 minutes until that component works right.<P>The decision between Mac and PC is a complex one. Troublesome? Either can be a complete nightmare. I know a number of people who switched from one to the other for various reasons. They go to Macs because their PC was a lemon or they go to a PC because their Mac wouldn't run all the cool stuff that their friend has. Is your 'average' user a woodworker or a person who simply wants a PC to do what he wants when he wants and doesn't want to see, hear it, or think about it the rest of the time?<P>Those are the real questions.
     
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    Geese

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  • #18
    Otherworld:<BR> Take into consideration the fact that most of the people here (another generalization) are above *average* users of their respective OSes.<BR> I've mostly grown up on Win95/98 at home, but I had to use Macs at my school all the way through high school. I found that yes, Macs were more stable in that they only ran a handful of programs. Internet, word processors, etc. If all you do is email, browse the web, chat, and type papers, then a Mac is an excellent choice (this coming from a non-Mac user who happens to know a Mac user who fits this description well).<BR> The moment you want to get past the usual applications is when Windows becomes the OS of choice. Win98SE is supposedly the most *stable* choice. It handles all the normal progs, but has the hardware and software base to do much more than a Mac can.<BR> Both OSes can do the basics well and remain relatively stable. At our office, we run Win95 on all 30 of our laptops and have relatively few issues. The moment we start adding external jaz drives, etc we get more holdups than all the other laptops that are running stock combined.<BR> If you are still stuck deciding, give dellauction.com a shot. Look at the refurbished PCs from Dell. They have warranties, but are a lot cheaper because they were sent back (again another instance where I know someone who has a refurbished Dell and is pleased).<P>Hope this helps.
     
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    DMC

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  • #19
    OK it's time for me to school some of you lamers!<P>PCI 101 & Macintosh Plug and Play 101<P>To make a PCI card for the Mac, Apple has two rules(standards) to go by. First Apple has API's for all types of cards. SCSI, Video(Quickdraw,Quicktime), Ethernet etc.So if you want to make a card for the Mac you can use Apple's API call's and put them in a rom. This allows the Mac to not need drivers for the card at all. (e.g Asante ethernet cards. You just plug it in. The Mac says hi ethernet card. I see you can do 100Mbit, well let me see if the switch/hub is that fast). Of course you can still make drivers to take advantage of anything else the card can do.<P>Or you can say fuck you Apple and not use a rom with Apple's API calls in the card. However in order for your card to ever work on a Mac. Is to Make your card %100 PCI compliant. You will need to write drivers for the Mac to interface with it but it will work just fine. e.g (3dfx voodoo cards)<P>Macs, PC's, SGI's they all suck! Just give me a federation Starship with a holodeck and i'm set.<BR>
     
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    Vorpal Bunny

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  • #20
    Speaking from the position of a technical support guy, for the Average, Clueless User, computers are hideously complex. Keep in mind most people barely know how to work the basic functions of thier VCR and coffee maker.<P>Computers SUCK. It's like owning a first or second generation Model T Ford. In order to truely USE it, you have to become something of a mechanic.<P>vb<BR>nasty big pointy teeth.
     
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    hmurchison

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  • #28
    Let's be honest a Mac is far less troublesome. Now I not saying that the Mac is a better machine, it's just less trouble to deal with. Most Mac Tech Support Reps won't tell you to reinstall MacOS(at least they shouldn't) because most Mac users know that we never really have to reinstall the WHOLE OS. Worst case scenario...just install a new system folder. Many PC users pride themselve pride themselves pride themselves....did I mention PRIDE THEMSELVES on being able to troubleshoot problems and optimizing the OS. I give kudos to them. Newbie users don't want to learn this valuable skill they just want the machine to work. Odds are that's going to be easiest on the Macintosh platform.
     
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    otherworld

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  • #33
    Thank you to those who posted intelligent responses. yes I realise that most who post here are certainly above average users, so it is a bit difficult to apply your own experience to what is essentially an abstract question. There are obviously many factors involved and therefore no cut and dried answers as it ultimately depends on what the average user is going to 'do' with their new computer. Personally, I have always used Macs (design, pre press and general office stuff) and had what I consider to be a trouble free time. At some stage in the next year, I will be buying a workstation for digital video editing, so stability, ease of use/troubleshooting, availability (and upgradeability) of high end graphics cards are important factors. This has actually cleared up some misconceptions I had about PCs and again, I appreciate the informed points of view.<P>For those who couldn't resist the opportunity to bag users of another platform in the name of humour, you succeeded, and thank you for the laugh! However, the joke's on you. Ever heard of a well known psychological phenomenon called 'negative projection'? A person with deficiencies they are yet to come to terms with sees these same deficiencies in others and is vocal about it! Its that amazing Personal Computer called the 'subconcious mind' at work again.<P>Bit of a worry eh? View image: /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<P>[This message has been edited by otherworld (edited January 27, 2000).]<P>[This message has been edited by otherworld (edited January 27, 2000).]
     
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    hmurchison

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  • #36
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR><I>Originally posted by Laner@Home:</I><BR> <BR>Huh?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>I meant she must not be the type of girl that's into Pink and Sappy Love movies. It's hard to find women who are into computers and sports and wrasslin..<P>PeterB.....down boy down boy! I gotta get my posts up somehow View image: /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<BR>
     
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    Paul Hill

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  • #38
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR><I>Originally posted by hmurchison:</I><BR>I meant she must not be the type of girl that's into Pink and Sappy Love movies. It's hard to find women who are into computers and sports and wrasslin..<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My Wife knows the difference between a VERTEXLIST and a VERTEXFAN. Unfortuntely she doesn't mind sitting through "Sleepless In Seattle". Whereas I do. She like Macintoshes, and can't see the point of computer-bashing. I'm sure this goes to show something, but I'm sure I don't know what.
     
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    Paul Hill

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  • #39
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR><I>Originally posted by otherworld:</I><BR>For those who couldn't resist the opportunity to bag users of another platform in the name of humour, you succeeded, and thank you for the laugh! However, the joke's on you. Ever heard of a well known psychological phenomenon <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>(instantly stopped reading)<P>"The Jokes On You?" Only people with no sense of humour OF ANY KIND use this phrase, and then do tuppeny-halfpenny psychobabble crud on it. Psychologists need to be taken out, thrown roughly against in a wall and have their heads smashed in with an axe. Urh, maybe people like Venture and PeterB don't like Macs for a <I>reason</I>, and that reason is their <I>experience</I>. Here's an example.<P>I despise OS/2 with every fibre of my being. This is because I spent a year mucking about with 2.0 on site, which turned out to be incompatible microcode in the SCSI controller. Do you see?
     
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    DrPizza

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  • #40
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>For those who couldn't resist the opportunity to bag users of another platform in the name of humour, you succeeded, and thank you for the laugh! However, the joke's on you. Ever heard of a well known psychological phenomenon called 'negative projection'? A person with deficiencies they are yet to come to terms with sees these same deficiencies in others and is vocal about it! Its that amazing Personal Computer called the 'subconcious mind' at work again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So, lemme get this straight. You're saying that it's not the Mac users that have low IQs, but myself?<P>Yeah, if you say so.
     
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