Apple appeal to Investigatory Powers Tribunal may be the first case of its type.
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Apple appeals UK’s secret demand for backdoor access to encrypted user data
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The UK always seems 1 step ahead of the US in terms of privacy invasion. Their CCTV alone is skeevy as hell.
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Sigh, I guess a new generation of leaders need to be educated: if you create a backdoor for government, it will be used by criminals. Any encryption with a backdoor is no encryption. Encryption is math, and math doesn't care about your political stance.
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Haven't you heard? There's been a change around here. US Government don't care.
Apple is doing the best it can by appealing this ruling and by cutting England off from ADP. I can only imagine how we'd all feel it it were possible for some corrupt British spy to start looking through the data of Americans. We already have to contend with Musk.
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Why would the US step in? they want the same thing. If Apple does it for the UK, they get it, too. (they being the government. I am, unfortunately, a US citizen, but this regime is not one I support in basically any way).
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Another issue here: how can the government publicly punish an individual or corporation for refusing a secret order? At some point, it has to become public or the justice system is totally corrupted. Same goes for the US FISA orders, although those usually have a sunset clause.
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The government knows exactly what they are doing.
Phase 1. Create law requiring backdoor access.
Phase 2. Instead of giving a backdoor, the company stops encryption.
Phase 3. Now the data is no longer encrypted and the government have their backdoor, which is now a front door, that is wide open for them to take advantage of.
Apple didn't give them a backdoor (which they are correct in doing). Unfortunately, in removing the encryption, they have basically handed the keys over to anything in the iCloud. Damned if they do and damned if they don't.
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Sigh, the idiotic demand for backdoors will never end. Except when the backdoors are created and everyone eventually suffers for it. Terrorists obviously excluded, since they break the law all the time anyway and will have all the encryption they want.
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They were thinking "Uh, does this law say I can do that? Well, let's do it."
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I am no fan of Trump, but this is patently false. In fact, it was the Biden administration that, shamefully, went along with this. The Trump administration seems to be pushing back against the UK demand at multiple levels.
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Hopefully the entities that use the Apple cloud know to encrypt prior to putting it into the cloud. Won't be as seamless unfortunately.
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Technically you still have encryption without ADP, it's just that Apple retain the key and thus could be forced to legally, via court action, decrypt something whereas with ADP Apple can't do anything to help. I've always been dubious about these companies that preach about advanced encryption for customers benefit, in reality I've always believed that from a companies perspective it is more to do with being able to say there is nothing we can do about controlling what is sent.
I suspect where the rumoured request about encryption runs into trouble is the rumoured world wide aspect of the request.
I suspect where the rumoured request about encryption runs into trouble is the rumoured world wide aspect of the request.
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Doesn't get any plainer or in your face or factual than this.
British government: We want you to break encryption.
Apple: Screw off.
British government: We want you to break encryption.
Apple: Screw off.
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Infiltration, like when they asked Apple to unlock the Iphone of that shooter. The FBI was forced to go to a Israeli security company, likely closely connected to the Mossad.
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Where is Google or Meta (WhatsAPP) in this discussion? The fact that we haven't heard any news from any other players means they are working on the back door? I realize these requests are secretive, but surely some employee out there in any of these big players would squeal on such a request?
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I was called to jury service in London a few years back. Two of the cases relied on CCTV. Both times, the CCTV wasn't worked. So, manky as well as skeevy...
Edit: got the slang wrong first time
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Because they are the government, and they can do whatever they want to, ultimately, unless the people change the government.
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Absolutely insane that a government thinks it should be allowed to issue secret diktat’s to transnational company’s that would force the company to break encryption for all users, world wide.
It’s the equivalent of demanding all house makers world wide install a highly visible, easily accessible door that says “Super Secret UK Gov Access Point, No Touching!”
Even though they’re already required to have a much more secure door that that’s easily accessible to the government with a sign that reads “Warrants and Judge’s Orders Access Point, please have your documents ready.”
It’s the equivalent of demanding all house makers world wide install a highly visible, easily accessible door that says “Super Secret UK Gov Access Point, No Touching!”
Even though they’re already required to have a much more secure door that that’s easily accessible to the government with a sign that reads “Warrants and Judge’s Orders Access Point, please have your documents ready.”
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It's not exactly an internal affair if it affects all iPhone users worldwide, including politicians of other sovereign nations who use iPhones.
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It is absolutely appropriate for Apple to go to the US to ask them to put pressure on the UK here. Think of cases where other countries arrest our citizens - the US negotiates to get them back, if they determine it's in the public interest to do so. US trade negotiators put pressure on other countries to give our companies breaks (tax breaks, regulatory approvals, etc.). This would be very similar, and is one of three main options Apple has other than compliance (UK legal route; US pressure; removal of all operations from the UK).
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Apple can just leave the relatively tiny UK market (Apple sales in the UK are like $1.5B, compared to over $100B in the EU as a whole). One can argue that forgoing UK sales over user privacy will only increase their sales in the rest of the world.
The UK needs Apple a lot more than Apple needs the UK.
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The United Stages could enact a law making it illegal for Apple to disclose data belonging to its resident citizens to a foreign power. This would give Apple standing to challenge the UK edict in an international court.
Not a lawyer. I have a nephew-in-training for that.
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Stop selling iPhones in the UK.
/me shrugs
That's an expensive option, obviously, but it's on the table. Losing the UK market wouldn't exactly drive Apple out of business, and might actually cost less than the reputational damage of conceding. (I recognize that "might" is doing a lot of lifting there; I am only hypothesizing).
Conveniently, since Brexit, I expect this would be easier/cheaper than it would have been beforehand.
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If Apple caves in to this kind of demand, then the US Government will quickly follow.
A backdoor for one purpose will quickly evolve into something much worse for all of us.
Imagine "High Minded Citizens' or Governments" creating software to constantly go through user data, all with the intent of weeding out "TBD" subversive content.
A backdoor for one purpose will quickly evolve into something much worse for all of us.
Imagine "High Minded Citizens' or Governments" creating software to constantly go through user data, all with the intent of weeding out "TBD" subversive content.
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"that the notice issued in January "
So they admit there was a notice, but refuses to admit it exists?
So they admit there was a notice, but refuses to admit it exists?
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The US Government wouldn't need to "follow." The UK is a Five Eyes nation; any signals intelligence (and way more, but technically "just" sigint) they have access to, the US has access to. And what they're asking for is a backdoor into all Apple users' data worldwide.
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if the uk gets their wish then china will be close behind.
does the uk want china reading all their info?
never mind the criminals who will find the backdoor in a couple weeks time.
do these politicians ever think these things through?
does the uk want china reading all their info?
never mind the criminals who will find the backdoor in a couple weeks time.
do these politicians ever think these things through?
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Correction: if you create a backdoor for the government, it's already being used by criminals – they just happen to be in government.
Nobody voted for this invasion of privacy – it wasn't anywhere in Labour's election manifesto. Plus as any first year computing student understands, getting rid of or undermining cryptography doesn't stop criminals from using it anyway – they're criminals, they don't care about the laws.
So these kinds of moves only make sense from the perspective of mass surveillance of everyone, the vast majority of whom are innocent.
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The USA already has basically the same thing, through those national security letters that target origanizations are legally obligated to lie about.
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If Apple caves in to this kind of demand, then it should publish the keys to the iPhone of every government politician in the UK. They want access? Lets make it transparent access.
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Sure they do.
1. Write / propose anti-encryption law that takes away rights "in order to fight sex traffickers and pedophiles"
2. Loudly proclaim anyone that questions this is pro-pedophile
3. Win your election based on "standing up to the pedophiles (on the left) and in big tech"
4. Repeat
It's a simple and effective plan!
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